Adama, Tigh, Lee, and Starbuck musings
Jul. 12th, 2005 06:51 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dangermousieI was wondering earlier about how everyone in BSG is really out of their depths, which came out of discussion with husband where he referred to Mrs. Tigh as "Angel of Alcohol" (I love being married to a fellow Geek) and somehow it morphed into an Adama musing.
You know, he appears to be an excellent Commander, the crew loves him etc etc.
But he is completely out of his depth as a co-ruler (which is what he really is). Basically, he runs BSG as some sort of feudal system. People are personally loyal to him. The greatest wrong Roslin commits is taking Starbuck's loyalty away from him. The wrong Lee does is not behaving in an illegal fashion (because he does not. In fact he follows the law. Adama and not Lee is the mutineer) but in going against Adama and being disloyal (a pattern that runs throughout S1 where Adama percieves Lee as disloyal whenever he disagrees, whether his position is valid or not). The concept of personal loyalty, of running his "fief" in a way he likes is seen throughout (e.g. when he stops Tyrol court-martial. It's a good thing, but once again, he is putting his personal views above the law).
There is nothing wrong with his attitude if he wasn't who he was. A military commander should inspire loyalty and value it. A middle of a battle is not a time for a soldier (or even a CAG :D) to have a philosophical discussion. And if Adama had a Chief of Staff above him, with whom this chain of loyalty would be maintained, he would be perfectly fine. But he does not. He has no superiors. He has a co-governor, an equal, Laura Roslin, as they agreed to have her take care of civilian matters while he takes care of the military. And this is where the problem comes in. Because he has no one to rein him in, no one whose claim to do so he ackgnowledges, and he has not yet learned (as Carrot in Terry Pratchett Watch books put it) that "personal is not the same as important." Lee of course, has learned that, as he backs Roslin because she is the President who had a right to make her decision, even if that decision was to send his best friendand wannabe snuggle bunny on a suicide mission.
Of course, that is because Roslin has a tenuous grasp on authority. She is 40something in line. If the President of the Colonies was still alive, or even their Minister of War, Adama would trust their judgment a lot more and obey them. But of course, his reluctance to do so with Roslin is understandable: she is not elected (and won't be until the election campaign), and he is correct in being suspicious of her qualifications for the job.
However, running a whole fleet on personal feelings, when not everyone is in your chain of command is quite problematic. At the very least, it gives people a confused feeling of loyalty. When Lee mutinies against the mutiny, he is at least arguably right (I believe he is completely right, as otherwise Adama's action undermines the thin veneer of civilization and unlike Zarek, I believe it's only the pretense of normalcy that keeps everything running without riots, but that's a separate matterhow was that for a run on sentence?) as Roslin has an equal right to loyalty and obedience to Adama, if not even greater. But of course Adama, carried away by personal loyalty=abstract loyalty does not see that.
But from believing that not agreeing with one equals disloyalty equals abstract illegality is a dangerous slippery slope.
Of course, Adama is out of it, shot and recuperating, and poor Col. Tigh is left with the mess. And he inspires neither the insane personal loyalty Adama does, nor is he as able to cope. He is a good officer, but the reason he likes his bottle and his wife who provides him the bottle is because the stress does get to him, unlike Adama who appears to be able to shoulder anything. When Adama tells Lee that the responsibility for Olympic Carrier is his, you can tell that part of it is that he knows his shoulders are capable of bearing that burden and won't give him any worse nightmares (and I think in many ways Lee is a chip off the old block and will be somewhat like that in 20 or so years, only more diplomatically savvy if less adoration-from-crew-inspiring. And of course, his refusing to shift responsibility is proof of his capability and maturity). And Tigh is in a horrible situation.
His chain of command above is decimated: his CO is unconscious and in a coma like state, and the President is in the brig. The VP is missing on Kobol or dead. And his chain of command below is also gone. His CAG is in the brig for mutiny, and he can't restore him even if he wanted to, as mutiny has to be punished for discipline's sake (though if that promo with Apollo being dragged away, screaming "he is my father" and trying to stay with Adama is any indication, Tigh isn't feeling too kindly towards him, which is understandable as Lee pulled a gun on him). His best pilot is gone and also presumably dead. His Chief of the deck is also on Kobol or dead. Also, Tigh is not as beloved/legendary as Adama, nor is he as smart. Tigh is going to need that booze.
And that brings me to Starbuck. Of course, she is Adama's "favorite child." Partly because she is not his real child, like Lee or Zak (and the expectations for those are always lower). But also because her loyalties are always personal. She is no abstract thinker about political goals and ideals like Lee. Her mindset is in fact very similar to Adama's. Lee is a lot more like Roslin than Adama. Adama loves Lee, of course. But I don't think he really understands him. While with Starbuck, he does. He does because she is very much like him. He knows which way she'll jump. She has her faults and he knows them, but he can deal easier with them than with Lee's, because they are the faults he could have had himself.
And this very long ramble is pretty much done :)
You know, he appears to be an excellent Commander, the crew loves him etc etc.
But he is completely out of his depth as a co-ruler (which is what he really is). Basically, he runs BSG as some sort of feudal system. People are personally loyal to him. The greatest wrong Roslin commits is taking Starbuck's loyalty away from him. The wrong Lee does is not behaving in an illegal fashion (because he does not. In fact he follows the law. Adama and not Lee is the mutineer) but in going against Adama and being disloyal (a pattern that runs throughout S1 where Adama percieves Lee as disloyal whenever he disagrees, whether his position is valid or not). The concept of personal loyalty, of running his "fief" in a way he likes is seen throughout (e.g. when he stops Tyrol court-martial. It's a good thing, but once again, he is putting his personal views above the law).
There is nothing wrong with his attitude if he wasn't who he was. A military commander should inspire loyalty and value it. A middle of a battle is not a time for a soldier (or even a CAG :D) to have a philosophical discussion. And if Adama had a Chief of Staff above him, with whom this chain of loyalty would be maintained, he would be perfectly fine. But he does not. He has no superiors. He has a co-governor, an equal, Laura Roslin, as they agreed to have her take care of civilian matters while he takes care of the military. And this is where the problem comes in. Because he has no one to rein him in, no one whose claim to do so he ackgnowledges, and he has not yet learned (as Carrot in Terry Pratchett Watch books put it) that "personal is not the same as important." Lee of course, has learned that, as he backs Roslin because she is the President who had a right to make her decision, even if that decision was to send his best friend
Of course, that is because Roslin has a tenuous grasp on authority. She is 40something in line. If the President of the Colonies was still alive, or even their Minister of War, Adama would trust their judgment a lot more and obey them. But of course, his reluctance to do so with Roslin is understandable: she is not elected (and won't be until the election campaign), and he is correct in being suspicious of her qualifications for the job.
However, running a whole fleet on personal feelings, when not everyone is in your chain of command is quite problematic. At the very least, it gives people a confused feeling of loyalty. When Lee mutinies against the mutiny, he is at least arguably right (I believe he is completely right, as otherwise Adama's action undermines the thin veneer of civilization and unlike Zarek, I believe it's only the pretense of normalcy that keeps everything running without riots, but that's a separate matter
But from believing that not agreeing with one equals disloyalty equals abstract illegality is a dangerous slippery slope.
Of course, Adama is out of it, shot and recuperating, and poor Col. Tigh is left with the mess. And he inspires neither the insane personal loyalty Adama does, nor is he as able to cope. He is a good officer, but the reason he likes his bottle and his wife who provides him the bottle is because the stress does get to him, unlike Adama who appears to be able to shoulder anything. When Adama tells Lee that the responsibility for Olympic Carrier is his, you can tell that part of it is that he knows his shoulders are capable of bearing that burden and won't give him any worse nightmares (and I think in many ways Lee is a chip off the old block and will be somewhat like that in 20 or so years, only more diplomatically savvy if less adoration-from-crew-inspiring. And of course, his refusing to shift responsibility is proof of his capability and maturity). And Tigh is in a horrible situation.
His chain of command above is decimated: his CO is unconscious and in a coma like state, and the President is in the brig. The VP is missing on Kobol or dead. And his chain of command below is also gone. His CAG is in the brig for mutiny, and he can't restore him even if he wanted to, as mutiny has to be punished for discipline's sake (though if that promo with Apollo being dragged away, screaming "he is my father" and trying to stay with Adama is any indication, Tigh isn't feeling too kindly towards him, which is understandable as Lee pulled a gun on him). His best pilot is gone and also presumably dead. His Chief of the deck is also on Kobol or dead. Also, Tigh is not as beloved/legendary as Adama, nor is he as smart. Tigh is going to need that booze.
And that brings me to Starbuck. Of course, she is Adama's "favorite child." Partly because she is not his real child, like Lee or Zak (and the expectations for those are always lower). But also because her loyalties are always personal. She is no abstract thinker about political goals and ideals like Lee. Her mindset is in fact very similar to Adama's. Lee is a lot more like Roslin than Adama. Adama loves Lee, of course. But I don't think he really understands him. While with Starbuck, he does. He does because she is very much like him. He knows which way she'll jump. She has her faults and he knows them, but he can deal easier with them than with Lee's, because they are the faults he could have had himself.
And this very long ramble is pretty much done :)
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no subject
Date: 2005-07-13 03:46 pm (UTC)However, I respect the guts of someone still trying to do the best she can even though she is dying, in pain, and the ultimate survival of the human race is thus, for her, academic.
I do think her interest in prophesy is not purely altruistic. She wants to be special, to not have lived in vain, to be remembered. Human and understandable, but it clouds her judgment.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-13 03:55 pm (UTC)She wants to be special, to not have lived in vain, to be remembered.
On what do you base this, aside from your dislike of the character (which is your privilege)?
no subject
Date: 2005-07-13 04:02 pm (UTC)She does not realize it: the way she interacts with Adama or the rest (this is of course, based on my subjective view that the military is more qualified to handle a lot of matters than she is).
Re: not live in vain. Once again, I would think this is a normal human reaction. Yes, she wants to save humanity. She is a good person. But I think it's very natural to want to think you are special, as well. Maybe it's the way she clutches at the prophesy, even though prophesies are never literal and because she swallows Leoben's lines without thinking about them further.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-13 04:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-13 06:26 pm (UTC)Well, in all fairness who WOULD be? I don't think they have post-Apocalyptic government studies at universities. :)
She does not realize it: the way she interacts with Adama or the rest (this is of course, based on my subjective view that the military is more qualified to handle a lot of matters than she is).
And that is *totally* subjective. I personally would not want to be governed in any way by the military, but to each her own.
Maybe it's the way she clutches at the prophesy, even though prophesies are never literal emphasis mine
Based on?
and because she swallows Leoben's lines without thinking about them further.
Again, based on? Never mind that Leoben's lines turned out to be true (and technically, although I hope it's NOT true, Adama hasn't been proven NOT to be a Cylon, either).
Your statements are *subjective*, based solely on your dislike of the character which is, as I said, your prerogative. I'm not trying to start a fight or change anyone's mind, but if you're going to make statements that Laura Roslin is unqualified or somewhat less than altruistic, you could at least base it on canon. If you can't, then it is only your opinion.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-13 06:30 pm (UTC)If you can't, then it is only your opinion.
Yes, of course. It's only my opinion, based on subjective personal views. It's equally subjective to believe she is purely altruistic, as opposed to be partially motivated by some desires of her own, as there has been no authoritative statement either way. I was just trying to explain why *I* don't really love her as a person, though find her interesting as a character.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-13 06:46 pm (UTC)Which I never said...
as there has been no authoritative statement either way.
Which is exactly my point.
I was just trying to explain why *I* don't really love her as a person, though find her interesting as a character.
That comes through loud and clear. :)
no subject
Date: 2005-07-13 06:57 pm (UTC)No. I was just stating two alternative explanations for her behavior and stating they were both valid as far as the show has developed so far. I picked one, someone else can pick another.
That comes through loud and clear.
Heh. Of course, I might not like her, but I don't mean that she is not a good person, or likeable for someone else, or whatever. In all honesty, I don't care if a character is likeable or not, as long as I find them interesting, and I find Roslin infinitely so. A Roslin-centric ep if they make one? Bring it on! While I think Cally is very likeable (so far) but not very complex and a whole ep about her would give me fits.