Adama, Tigh, Lee, and Starbuck musings

[dangermousie]

I was wondering earlier about how everyone in BSG is really out of their depths, which came out of discussion with husband where he referred to Mrs. Tigh as "Angel of Alcohol" (I love being married to a fellow Geek) and somehow it morphed into an Adama musing.

You know, he appears to be an excellent Commander, the crew loves him etc etc.

But he is completely out of his depth as a co-ruler (which is what he really is). Basically, he runs BSG as some sort of feudal system. People are personally loyal to him. The greatest wrong Roslin commits is taking Starbuck's loyalty away from him. The wrong Lee does is not behaving in an illegal fashion (because he does not. In fact he follows the law. Adama and not Lee is the mutineer) but in going against Adama and being disloyal (a pattern that runs throughout S1 where Adama percieves Lee as disloyal whenever he disagrees, whether his position is valid or not). The concept of personal loyalty, of running his "fief" in a way he likes is seen throughout (e.g. when he stops Tyrol court-martial. It's a good thing, but once again, he is putting his personal views above the law).

There is nothing wrong with his attitude if he wasn't who he was. A military commander should inspire loyalty and value it. A middle of a battle is not a time for a soldier (or even a CAG :D) to have a philosophical discussion. And if Adama had a Chief of Staff above him, with whom this chain of loyalty would be maintained, he would be perfectly fine. But he does not. He has no superiors. He has a co-governor, an equal, Laura Roslin, as they agreed to have her take care of civilian matters while he takes care of the military. And this is where the problem comes in. Because he has no one to rein him in, no one whose claim to do so he ackgnowledges, and he has not yet learned (as Carrot in Terry Pratchett Watch books put it) that "personal is not the same as important." Lee of course, has learned that, as he backs Roslin because she is the President who had a right to make her decision, even if that decision was to send his best friend and wannabe snuggle bunny on a suicide mission.

Of course, that is because Roslin has a tenuous grasp on authority. She is 40something in line. If the President of the Colonies was still alive, or even their Minister of War, Adama would trust their judgment a lot more and obey them. But of course, his reluctance to do so with Roslin is understandable: she is not elected (and won't be until the election campaign), and he is correct in being suspicious of her qualifications for the job.

However, running a whole fleet on personal feelings, when not everyone is in your chain of command is quite problematic. At the very least, it gives people a confused feeling of loyalty. When Lee mutinies against the mutiny, he is at least arguably right (I believe he is completely right, as otherwise Adama's action undermines the thin veneer of civilization and unlike Zarek, I believe it's only the pretense of normalcy that keeps everything running without riots, but that's a separate matter how was that for a run on sentence?) as Roslin has an equal right to loyalty and obedience to Adama, if not even greater. But of course Adama, carried away by personal loyalty=abstract loyalty does not see that.

But from believing that not agreeing with one equals disloyalty equals abstract illegality is a dangerous slippery slope.

Of course, Adama is out of it, shot and recuperating, and poor Col. Tigh is left with the mess. And he inspires neither the insane personal loyalty Adama does, nor is he as able to cope. He is a good officer, but the reason he likes his bottle and his wife who provides him the bottle is because the stress does get to him, unlike Adama who appears to be able to shoulder anything. When Adama tells Lee that the responsibility for Olympic Carrier is his, you can tell that part of it is that he knows his shoulders are capable of bearing that burden and won't give him any worse nightmares (and I think in many ways Lee is a chip off the old block and will be somewhat like that in 20 or so years, only more diplomatically savvy if less adoration-from-crew-inspiring. And of course, his refusing to shift responsibility is proof of his capability and maturity). And Tigh is in a horrible situation.

His chain of command above is decimated: his CO is unconscious and in a coma like state, and the President is in the brig. The VP is missing on Kobol or dead. And his chain of command below is also gone. His CAG is in the brig for mutiny, and he can't restore him even if he wanted to, as mutiny has to be punished for discipline's sake (though if that promo with Apollo being dragged away, screaming "he is my father" and trying to stay with Adama is any indication, Tigh isn't feeling too kindly towards him, which is understandable as Lee pulled a gun on him). His best pilot is gone and also presumably dead. His Chief of the deck is also on Kobol or dead. Also, Tigh is not as beloved/legendary as Adama, nor is he as smart. Tigh is going to need that booze.

And that brings me to Starbuck. Of course, she is Adama's "favorite child." Partly because she is not his real child, like Lee or Zak (and the expectations for those are always lower). But also because her loyalties are always personal. She is no abstract thinker about political goals and ideals like Lee. Her mindset is in fact very similar to Adama's. Lee is a lot more like Roslin than Adama. Adama loves Lee, of course. But I don't think he really understands him. While with Starbuck, he does. He does because she is very much like him. He knows which way she'll jump. She has her faults and he knows them, but he can deal easier with them than with Lee's, because they are the faults he could have had himself.

And this very long ramble is pretty much done :)

Comments

[linaerys.livejournal.com]

Cool ramble. I don't have a lot to add because I pretty much agree.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I can't wait till 2.1 (which sadly I won't see till Monday).

[ancarett]

I love your ramble!! Great thoughts and insights into Adama and Tigh. Your comments remind me of some of the discussions I have with my own husband.

Major notes: Adama's personal relations with his crew have clearly had an effect on discipline as we saw in "Litmus." What really strikes me there is how passive/aggressive he was with regards to Tyrol's problem. There was no outright order -- there was, instead, a harsh punishment on one of his underlings clearly meant to "send a message" to the Chief. That always struck me as quite inappropriate for a commander of so much experience.

(Minor notes: Roslin was 43rd in the succession and Adama'd need someone to rein him in, not reign.)

[kimbari.livejournal.com]

There was no outright order -- there was, instead, a harsh punishment on one of his underlings clearly meant to "send a message" to the Chief.

The punishment was deserved. Socinus perjured himself and Adama made it clear that THAT was what was being punished. And if it sent a message to the Chief, all the better.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

*blush* I corrected both of these.

strikes me there is how passive/aggressive he was with regards to Tyrol's problem. There was no outright order -- there was, instead, a harsh punishment on one of his underlings clearly meant to "send a message" to the Chief.

Exactly. He can't afford to let Tyrol go, so he punishes Socinus when it's clearly not Socinus himself he wants to punish (as the kid is just a scapegoat), but the Chief.

His personal relations make him beloved: he is a father-like figure to a lot of the crew, but also lead to huge problems with his own son. He is incapable of separating personal and greater good. He somewhat does view himself as infallible, but even more so, even if he knows that Lee's decision might be better, he cannot overcome the feeling that it's a result of disloyalty which to him outweighs coming with a better outcome.

I think that is part of the reason he is so fond of Tigh. Tigh is unquestionably loyal to him. In fact, his best relations are with those who are unquestionably, personally loyal (though it's interesting he overlooks Tigh's tattle-tale moment to Roslin in the "look for Kara" ep. Hmm, I wonder why).

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

No, of course the punishment was for a real infraction. However, he was being used as a scapegoat to send a message. I have a problem with that morally, even though I understand the necessity.

I like that Adama, like every other character on BSG is flawed. He is a good, maybe even great, person. But he is flawed nontheless.

The problem with the courtmartial is that he should have either not had the investigation at all, or let it run and not shut it down when he got annoyed.

[ancarett]

But in no way did Adama come out and say, "Hey, Tyrol, you have to stop this nookie with the Lieutenant." Or, even better, to Boomer as the officer, "Quite messing around with the Chief." Instead, Adama comes at it indirectly with a punishment of someone else laid upon Tyrol, intended to make the Chief feel utterly responsible. That's what I mean by passive-aggressive. You could justify Socinus' punishment as I'm sure Adama did, but from the way it came across in the little talk, he was letting the chief know that this had resulted from the Chief's actions with Boomer and there's nothing else the Chief can do since he's "too valuable."

I thought this moment illustrated Adama's humanity, empathy and fallibility. He's a good commander and inspires amazing loyalty in the people who work with him, but there are some subjects he cannot address directly or comfortably. He understands what love is and how powerful the impulse is to find it even against the rules (as we saw with his kind treatment of Kara after Zak's death -- treating her as family even when you think there might have been some raised eyebrows over the highly irregulr relationship between flight instructor and student). We've a;so seen this with his blind spots regarding Lee's feeling and, I think again, here when he cannot come out and tell Boomer, as the officer, to cut out the hanky-panky but sends an indirect message to Tyrol through Socinus' punishment.

It's not evil or nasty, it's just human.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I think Adama has problems addressing emotional issues head-on in general(not uncommon), which is why he makes a rare emotional declaration "if it was you, we'd never leave" so much more resonant. But then of course, if he was more in the habit of emotional openness he wouldn't have needed to say this to Lee, would he?

He tries to do it through indirection. E.g. in Ep 13, instead of berating Lee "you betrayed me. what kind of son are you?" he does so indirectly through praising Boomer in front of Lee.

It's understandable, it's human, and I think he is not the only one in the show who has that.

Starbuck has that: she deflects showing caring with humor or dysfunction (e.g. she finds Lee attractive, so she sleeps with Baltar, not really a mature reaction). She is upset about Zak's death flashbacks, so she yells at the nuggets, etc etc. Lee, of course, is also rather like that. It takes the end of the world for him to give in to the love he feels towards his father, and his reaction to Starbuck's Baltar incident is to lash out without admitting why (when she asks him "will you miss me?" and he replies "I need all my pilots. Even the screw-ups" is about the only time I want to shake him until his teeth rattle).

These are all understandable, but they are all there.

[kimbari.livejournal.com]

So do you think if Adama had let Socinus get away with perjury, that would've been a signal to Boomer and Tyrol that it was okay with him (Adama) to continue their affair?

See, I have a problem with someone being punished for a wrongdoing considered in any way a scapegoat. If Socinus hadn't perjured himself, he wouldn't have ended up in the brig. Period. And maybe it he hadn't, Adama would've had to have found another scapegoat, him being passive-aggressive and all. :) But that isn't how the story played out.

Adama knew what was going on with Boomer and Tyrol, but are those two not grownups and responsible for their own actions? I see it as an issue of personal responsibility all around.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for ancarett, but I do think a different person would have told Boomer or Tyrol plainly to knock off the hanky-panky. Adama didn't, sending an indirect message. It's a different way of dealing with it, and I don't think wrong, but I find it rather circuitous.

[ancarett]

If Adama hadn't punished Socinus, perhaps that could have been seen as approval, I don't know. He'd have had to draw a clear a parallel between the lack of punishment and the relationship as he did between the punishment and the relationship at the end of Litmus. And I still would have thought that rather odd.

No, I think that, since he'd come to the conclusion that the relationship was injurious to the ship, overall, Adama should have said directly to Boomer (as the officer), or Tyrol as the man in the relationship (if he was uncomfortable talking to a woman about her sexual relationship -- culturally understandable but incorrect from a military discipline view) that this had to come to an end. Or he could have legitimately devolved that duty to Tigh or even Lee as the CAG.

The quid pro quo drawn out for Tyrol that Socinus' punishment was payment for his own sins was where I felt Adama was reacting the wrong way. Yes, the Chief and Boomer were the ones to enter into an against-the-rules relationship and, thus, were the ones responsible for their own actions. And Socinus was responsible for his off-the-wall perjury. But once Adama became aware of the situation (and he hints that he's known for a while), he also shouldered a responsibility that I feel he handled inelegantly, here.

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

I do think a different person would have told Boomer or Tyrol plainly to knock off the hanky-panky.

But Tigh told them to stop. And since he always acts under Adama's orders, and, as the XO, does the unpleasant stuff in order to let Adama look good, I always assumed he did it because Adama told him "Everything that is against the regs has got to stop". He may not have gotten into specifics, but I think Tigh acted with his approval.

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

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<i<Or he could have legitimately devolved that duty to Tigh</i>

We don't know that he didn't do so. When Tigh told Boomer and Tyrol to stop, and admitted that the commander and him had let them get away with that because the ship was going to be decomissioned, I thought that it implied that Adama wanted him to enforce regulations now. It's not obvious that Tigh acted on his own initiative.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

True. And even though a direct order from Adama would have carried more authority, I doubt they would have stopped until something as bad as Litmus happened (heck, Boomer wanted to continue even afterwards). *waffles*

Of course, that is yet another reason that Lee (can't help it :P) had no right to yell at Starbuck re: Baltar fling. The hook-up pool for pilots is rather small. Unless Starbuck wants to go trolling the civilian ships, her only options are Billy or Baltar, really (can she hook up with pilots of the same rank btw?) and for male pilots it is even more limited.

[kimbari.livejournal.com]

A different person would've done a *lot* of things differently. We are stuck with Adama. :) I'm assuming that Adama *didn't* tell them to knock it off because it wasn't a problem for him. If I remember correctly he *never* told them to knock it off. I'm assuming it's because Adama considered them responsible *adults* who should be able to make their own decisions.

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with you too. One thing that does bother me though is the constant refrain that Roslin's qualifications for the presidency are questionable (not really a dig at what you say, just me getting defensive over a criticism I've heard all too often of her). I can't really see that she's any more jumped-up than any of the rest of them. She's been in politics for 20 years, part of the cabinet, worked closely with Prez Adar and his team, etc. How is she less qualified than Adama? He was was Commander of an aging Battlestar (seems kind of middle management to me), who presumably never commanded at a fleet level, nor was he privy to planning overall war strategies etc at the higher levels of the military. Though I can see why he was reluctant to cede any of his de facto power to her when she was an unknown quantity, in the meantime she's proven herself a shrewd and effective politician, who has skills Adama clearly lacks. Yet still, he trusts her not at all to make decisions impacting the entire remaining human population.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

And normally, I don't think it would have been a problem. Even on the newer, on the run BSG it wouldn't have been (realistically speaking) if Tyrol was frakking e.g. Kat or Cally. Of course, Boomer is a Cylon and that leads to his covering up for her in Water etc etc.

[ancarett]

That's an interesting point. I felt that Tigh was acting on his own agency, here, since Adama had been somewhat remarkably "hands off" WRT Tigh's taking some command decisions on his own in the mini (i.e. venting the compartments). But that is a supposition.

Still, we're left with the same issue: if Tigh was ordered to bring this to an end (or even to stop all fraternization amongst the crew) and had failed to do so, Adama as the commander would have to step in and do it himself here (and afterwards, ream out Tigh for his failing). If Tigh hadn't been ordered and Adama still wanted the relationship to end, where's the direct order?

I hardly think it's a fatal flaw or the worst of Adama's problems during the series (his increasing blind spot when it comes to Kara is one gigantic problem, his inability to understand the role of the civilian leadership is another even bigger), I find it interesting.

Hmmm. And I really need to give myself an Adama icon, don't I?

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

I suppose so, since it seems to be strictly a chain of command problem. Crashdown has a relationship with another pilot (the one who hugs him in the hangar bay in front of everybody), and they don't have to hide.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree with you. She is more qualified than anyone who is left. The problem is Adama doesn't necessarily see her qualified on an absolute scale (if it wasn't for her growing drug-dependent vision, I'd say he is wrong), as it is he has some grounds, though not for reasons he thinks.

Of course, he himself might not be qualified to be the Generalissimo on an absolute scale, but he of course, does not see it that way.

I would say they are about equally qualified (or un). Both are in unexpected positions and are doing their best.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Interesting. It does give them more choice then.

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

since Adama had been somewhat remarkably "hands off" WRT Tigh's taking some command decisions on his own in the mini (i.e. venting the compartments).

He wasn't really hands-off: he directly asked him to take care of the fire and said "you're either the XO or you're not". And after that, he couldn't disavow Tigh's actions, whatever he really thought of them, because Tigh is the XO, one of the only superior officers, and is needed.

if Tigh was ordered to bring this to an end (or even to stop all fraternization amongst the crew) and had failed to do so, Adama as the commander would have to step in and do it himself here (and afterwards, ream out Tigh for his failing). If Tigh hadn't been ordered and Adama still wanted the relationship to end, where's the direct order?

First, I don't think there was a specific order, but I suppose that Adama told Tigh something like "we're at war now, and we have to enforce discipline. That means that people will have to follow the regs". And since it's the XO's job to do the dirty job and act as a buffer between the crew and the commander ("I have to make the old man look good"), he took care of that. And remember, Tigh ordered Boomer and Tyrol to stop in Bastille Day. They got caught in Litmus, something like 10 days after. They were hiding with the complicity of the deck crew and I seriously doubt that Tigh knew that they disobeyed his order. He (and possibly Adama) must have assumed that they would stop, since he'd told them to do so. It may be his mistake (but Dangermousie just reminded me that even after the events in Litmus, Boomer still wanted to continue her relationship with Tyrol. It really took a lot to make them stop), but they're stretched thin, and the commander and him have had so many things to deal with between Bastille Day and Litmus (13 dead pilots. Starbuck missing...) that I can't really blame them for not checking to see if they would be obeyed.

Still, the issues you raise regarding Adama's failings are still valid.

(butting in)

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

Indeed, I thought dealing with personnel issues of this type is part of an XO's job description. The Commander is supposed to be busy with more important things.

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

No, I think that, since he'd come to the conclusion that the relationship was injurious to the ship, overall, Adama should have said directly to Boomer (as the officer), or Tyrol as the man in the relationship (if he was uncomfortable talking to a woman about her sexual relationship -- culturally understandable but incorrect from a military discipline view) that this had to come to an end. Or he could have legitimately devolved that duty to Tigh or even Lee as the CAG.

I could have completely the wrong end of the stick on this, but I think it just isn't something the CO would do. Of course we see Adama having personal conversations with Lee and Kara all the time, as well as Tigh, but that's personal, rather than part of the normal chain of command. As XO, it's Tigh's job to make the decision and have the conversation. Which he did.

Now my recollection is that in "Litmus Test" Adama told the tribunal that he had known about the Tyrol/Boomer affair, but had let it go because of the circumstances previous to the attack. So he may have told Tigh it was time to tighten up on discipline.

But personally, I have a bit of trouble with this. Under the circumstances (almost no population left, extreme stress, etc.) a better choice would have been to take a more pragmatic view toward such relationships. The problems stemming from Tyrol/Boomer (assuming she wasn't a Cylon for the moment) was not that their relationship undermined discipline. It was the *secrecy* and the lying, and Tyrol's crew trying to cover up for him. The entire investigation could have stayed on track if everyone had been able to say, "The Chief was with Boomer."

Just imo :-)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

But personally, I have a bit of trouble with this. Under the circumstances (almost no population left, extreme stress, etc.) a better choice would have been to take a more pragmatic view toward such relationships.

The only problem is, that would still lead to the situation in "Water" (where he covers up for her). Of course, people would still do that sort of thing for friends (e.g. Kara ramming Lee home despite the risk etc),so I think forbidding sexual relationships only goes so far and they should relax the rule.