Adama, Tigh, Lee, and Starbuck musings

[dangermousie]

I was wondering earlier about how everyone in BSG is really out of their depths, which came out of discussion with husband where he referred to Mrs. Tigh as "Angel of Alcohol" (I love being married to a fellow Geek) and somehow it morphed into an Adama musing.

You know, he appears to be an excellent Commander, the crew loves him etc etc.

But he is completely out of his depth as a co-ruler (which is what he really is). Basically, he runs BSG as some sort of feudal system. People are personally loyal to him. The greatest wrong Roslin commits is taking Starbuck's loyalty away from him. The wrong Lee does is not behaving in an illegal fashion (because he does not. In fact he follows the law. Adama and not Lee is the mutineer) but in going against Adama and being disloyal (a pattern that runs throughout S1 where Adama percieves Lee as disloyal whenever he disagrees, whether his position is valid or not). The concept of personal loyalty, of running his "fief" in a way he likes is seen throughout (e.g. when he stops Tyrol court-martial. It's a good thing, but once again, he is putting his personal views above the law).

There is nothing wrong with his attitude if he wasn't who he was. A military commander should inspire loyalty and value it. A middle of a battle is not a time for a soldier (or even a CAG :D) to have a philosophical discussion. And if Adama had a Chief of Staff above him, with whom this chain of loyalty would be maintained, he would be perfectly fine. But he does not. He has no superiors. He has a co-governor, an equal, Laura Roslin, as they agreed to have her take care of civilian matters while he takes care of the military. And this is where the problem comes in. Because he has no one to rein him in, no one whose claim to do so he ackgnowledges, and he has not yet learned (as Carrot in Terry Pratchett Watch books put it) that "personal is not the same as important." Lee of course, has learned that, as he backs Roslin because she is the President who had a right to make her decision, even if that decision was to send his best friend and wannabe snuggle bunny on a suicide mission.

Of course, that is because Roslin has a tenuous grasp on authority. She is 40something in line. If the President of the Colonies was still alive, or even their Minister of War, Adama would trust their judgment a lot more and obey them. But of course, his reluctance to do so with Roslin is understandable: she is not elected (and won't be until the election campaign), and he is correct in being suspicious of her qualifications for the job.

However, running a whole fleet on personal feelings, when not everyone is in your chain of command is quite problematic. At the very least, it gives people a confused feeling of loyalty. When Lee mutinies against the mutiny, he is at least arguably right (I believe he is completely right, as otherwise Adama's action undermines the thin veneer of civilization and unlike Zarek, I believe it's only the pretense of normalcy that keeps everything running without riots, but that's a separate matter how was that for a run on sentence?) as Roslin has an equal right to loyalty and obedience to Adama, if not even greater. But of course Adama, carried away by personal loyalty=abstract loyalty does not see that.

But from believing that not agreeing with one equals disloyalty equals abstract illegality is a dangerous slippery slope.

Of course, Adama is out of it, shot and recuperating, and poor Col. Tigh is left with the mess. And he inspires neither the insane personal loyalty Adama does, nor is he as able to cope. He is a good officer, but the reason he likes his bottle and his wife who provides him the bottle is because the stress does get to him, unlike Adama who appears to be able to shoulder anything. When Adama tells Lee that the responsibility for Olympic Carrier is his, you can tell that part of it is that he knows his shoulders are capable of bearing that burden and won't give him any worse nightmares (and I think in many ways Lee is a chip off the old block and will be somewhat like that in 20 or so years, only more diplomatically savvy if less adoration-from-crew-inspiring. And of course, his refusing to shift responsibility is proof of his capability and maturity). And Tigh is in a horrible situation.

His chain of command above is decimated: his CO is unconscious and in a coma like state, and the President is in the brig. The VP is missing on Kobol or dead. And his chain of command below is also gone. His CAG is in the brig for mutiny, and he can't restore him even if he wanted to, as mutiny has to be punished for discipline's sake (though if that promo with Apollo being dragged away, screaming "he is my father" and trying to stay with Adama is any indication, Tigh isn't feeling too kindly towards him, which is understandable as Lee pulled a gun on him). His best pilot is gone and also presumably dead. His Chief of the deck is also on Kobol or dead. Also, Tigh is not as beloved/legendary as Adama, nor is he as smart. Tigh is going to need that booze.

And that brings me to Starbuck. Of course, she is Adama's "favorite child." Partly because she is not his real child, like Lee or Zak (and the expectations for those are always lower). But also because her loyalties are always personal. She is no abstract thinker about political goals and ideals like Lee. Her mindset is in fact very similar to Adama's. Lee is a lot more like Roslin than Adama. Adama loves Lee, of course. But I don't think he really understands him. While with Starbuck, he does. He does because she is very much like him. He knows which way she'll jump. She has her faults and he knows them, but he can deal easier with them than with Lee's, because they are the faults he could have had himself.

And this very long ramble is pretty much done :)

Comments

[linaerys.livejournal.com]

Cool ramble. I don't have a lot to add because I pretty much agree.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I can't wait till 2.1 (which sadly I won't see till Monday).

[ancarett]

I love your ramble!! Great thoughts and insights into Adama and Tigh. Your comments remind me of some of the discussions I have with my own husband.

Major notes: Adama's personal relations with his crew have clearly had an effect on discipline as we saw in "Litmus." What really strikes me there is how passive/aggressive he was with regards to Tyrol's problem. There was no outright order -- there was, instead, a harsh punishment on one of his underlings clearly meant to "send a message" to the Chief. That always struck me as quite inappropriate for a commander of so much experience.

(Minor notes: Roslin was 43rd in the succession and Adama'd need someone to rein him in, not reign.)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

*blush* I corrected both of these.

strikes me there is how passive/aggressive he was with regards to Tyrol's problem. There was no outright order -- there was, instead, a harsh punishment on one of his underlings clearly meant to "send a message" to the Chief.

Exactly. He can't afford to let Tyrol go, so he punishes Socinus when it's clearly not Socinus himself he wants to punish (as the kid is just a scapegoat), but the Chief.

His personal relations make him beloved: he is a father-like figure to a lot of the crew, but also lead to huge problems with his own son. He is incapable of separating personal and greater good. He somewhat does view himself as infallible, but even more so, even if he knows that Lee's decision might be better, he cannot overcome the feeling that it's a result of disloyalty which to him outweighs coming with a better outcome.

I think that is part of the reason he is so fond of Tigh. Tigh is unquestionably loyal to him. In fact, his best relations are with those who are unquestionably, personally loyal (though it's interesting he overlooks Tigh's tattle-tale moment to Roslin in the "look for Kara" ep. Hmm, I wonder why).

[kimbari.livejournal.com]

There was no outright order -- there was, instead, a harsh punishment on one of his underlings clearly meant to "send a message" to the Chief.

The punishment was deserved. Socinus perjured himself and Adama made it clear that THAT was what was being punished. And if it sent a message to the Chief, all the better.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

No, of course the punishment was for a real infraction. However, he was being used as a scapegoat to send a message. I have a problem with that morally, even though I understand the necessity.

I like that Adama, like every other character on BSG is flawed. He is a good, maybe even great, person. But he is flawed nontheless.

The problem with the courtmartial is that he should have either not had the investigation at all, or let it run and not shut it down when he got annoyed.

[ancarett]

But in no way did Adama come out and say, "Hey, Tyrol, you have to stop this nookie with the Lieutenant." Or, even better, to Boomer as the officer, "Quite messing around with the Chief." Instead, Adama comes at it indirectly with a punishment of someone else laid upon Tyrol, intended to make the Chief feel utterly responsible. That's what I mean by passive-aggressive. You could justify Socinus' punishment as I'm sure Adama did, but from the way it came across in the little talk, he was letting the chief know that this had resulted from the Chief's actions with Boomer and there's nothing else the Chief can do since he's "too valuable."

I thought this moment illustrated Adama's humanity, empathy and fallibility. He's a good commander and inspires amazing loyalty in the people who work with him, but there are some subjects he cannot address directly or comfortably. He understands what love is and how powerful the impulse is to find it even against the rules (as we saw with his kind treatment of Kara after Zak's death -- treating her as family even when you think there might have been some raised eyebrows over the highly irregulr relationship between flight instructor and student). We've a;so seen this with his blind spots regarding Lee's feeling and, I think again, here when he cannot come out and tell Boomer, as the officer, to cut out the hanky-panky but sends an indirect message to Tyrol through Socinus' punishment.

It's not evil or nasty, it's just human.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I think Adama has problems addressing emotional issues head-on in general(not uncommon), which is why he makes a rare emotional declaration "if it was you, we'd never leave" so much more resonant. But then of course, if he was more in the habit of emotional openness he wouldn't have needed to say this to Lee, would he?

He tries to do it through indirection. E.g. in Ep 13, instead of berating Lee "you betrayed me. what kind of son are you?" he does so indirectly through praising Boomer in front of Lee.

It's understandable, it's human, and I think he is not the only one in the show who has that.

Starbuck has that: she deflects showing caring with humor or dysfunction (e.g. she finds Lee attractive, so she sleeps with Baltar, not really a mature reaction). She is upset about Zak's death flashbacks, so she yells at the nuggets, etc etc. Lee, of course, is also rather like that. It takes the end of the world for him to give in to the love he feels towards his father, and his reaction to Starbuck's Baltar incident is to lash out without admitting why (when she asks him "will you miss me?" and he replies "I need all my pilots. Even the screw-ups" is about the only time I want to shake him until his teeth rattle).

These are all understandable, but they are all there.

[kimbari.livejournal.com]

So do you think if Adama had let Socinus get away with perjury, that would've been a signal to Boomer and Tyrol that it was okay with him (Adama) to continue their affair?

See, I have a problem with someone being punished for a wrongdoing considered in any way a scapegoat. If Socinus hadn't perjured himself, he wouldn't have ended up in the brig. Period. And maybe it he hadn't, Adama would've had to have found another scapegoat, him being passive-aggressive and all. :) But that isn't how the story played out.

Adama knew what was going on with Boomer and Tyrol, but are those two not grownups and responsible for their own actions? I see it as an issue of personal responsibility all around.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for ancarett, but I do think a different person would have told Boomer or Tyrol plainly to knock off the hanky-panky. Adama didn't, sending an indirect message. It's a different way of dealing with it, and I don't think wrong, but I find it rather circuitous.

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

I do think a different person would have told Boomer or Tyrol plainly to knock off the hanky-panky.

But Tigh told them to stop. And since he always acts under Adama's orders, and, as the XO, does the unpleasant stuff in order to let Adama look good, I always assumed he did it because Adama told him "Everything that is against the regs has got to stop". He may not have gotten into specifics, but I think Tigh acted with his approval.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

True. And even though a direct order from Adama would have carried more authority, I doubt they would have stopped until something as bad as Litmus happened (heck, Boomer wanted to continue even afterwards). *waffles*

Of course, that is yet another reason that Lee (can't help it :P) had no right to yell at Starbuck re: Baltar fling. The hook-up pool for pilots is rather small. Unless Starbuck wants to go trolling the civilian ships, her only options are Billy or Baltar, really (can she hook up with pilots of the same rank btw?) and for male pilots it is even more limited.

[kimbari.livejournal.com]

A different person would've done a *lot* of things differently. We are stuck with Adama. :) I'm assuming that Adama *didn't* tell them to knock it off because it wasn't a problem for him. If I remember correctly he *never* told them to knock it off. I'm assuming it's because Adama considered them responsible *adults* who should be able to make their own decisions.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

And normally, I don't think it would have been a problem. Even on the newer, on the run BSG it wouldn't have been (realistically speaking) if Tyrol was frakking e.g. Kat or Cally. Of course, Boomer is a Cylon and that leads to his covering up for her in Water etc etc.

[ancarett]

If Adama hadn't punished Socinus, perhaps that could have been seen as approval, I don't know. He'd have had to draw a clear a parallel between the lack of punishment and the relationship as he did between the punishment and the relationship at the end of Litmus. And I still would have thought that rather odd.

No, I think that, since he'd come to the conclusion that the relationship was injurious to the ship, overall, Adama should have said directly to Boomer (as the officer), or Tyrol as the man in the relationship (if he was uncomfortable talking to a woman about her sexual relationship -- culturally understandable but incorrect from a military discipline view) that this had to come to an end. Or he could have legitimately devolved that duty to Tigh or even Lee as the CAG.

The quid pro quo drawn out for Tyrol that Socinus' punishment was payment for his own sins was where I felt Adama was reacting the wrong way. Yes, the Chief and Boomer were the ones to enter into an against-the-rules relationship and, thus, were the ones responsible for their own actions. And Socinus was responsible for his off-the-wall perjury. But once Adama became aware of the situation (and he hints that he's known for a while), he also shouldered a responsibility that I feel he handled inelegantly, here.

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

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<i<Or he could have legitimately devolved that duty to Tigh</i>

We don't know that he didn't do so. When Tigh told Boomer and Tyrol to stop, and admitted that the commander and him had let them get away with that because the ship was going to be decomissioned, I thought that it implied that Adama wanted him to enforce regulations now. It's not obvious that Tigh acted on his own initiative.

[ancarett]

That's an interesting point. I felt that Tigh was acting on his own agency, here, since Adama had been somewhat remarkably "hands off" WRT Tigh's taking some command decisions on his own in the mini (i.e. venting the compartments). But that is a supposition.

Still, we're left with the same issue: if Tigh was ordered to bring this to an end (or even to stop all fraternization amongst the crew) and had failed to do so, Adama as the commander would have to step in and do it himself here (and afterwards, ream out Tigh for his failing). If Tigh hadn't been ordered and Adama still wanted the relationship to end, where's the direct order?

I hardly think it's a fatal flaw or the worst of Adama's problems during the series (his increasing blind spot when it comes to Kara is one gigantic problem, his inability to understand the role of the civilian leadership is another even bigger), I find it interesting.

Hmmm. And I really need to give myself an Adama icon, don't I?

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

No, I think that, since he'd come to the conclusion that the relationship was injurious to the ship, overall, Adama should have said directly to Boomer (as the officer), or Tyrol as the man in the relationship (if he was uncomfortable talking to a woman about her sexual relationship -- culturally understandable but incorrect from a military discipline view) that this had to come to an end. Or he could have legitimately devolved that duty to Tigh or even Lee as the CAG.

I could have completely the wrong end of the stick on this, but I think it just isn't something the CO would do. Of course we see Adama having personal conversations with Lee and Kara all the time, as well as Tigh, but that's personal, rather than part of the normal chain of command. As XO, it's Tigh's job to make the decision and have the conversation. Which he did.

Now my recollection is that in "Litmus Test" Adama told the tribunal that he had known about the Tyrol/Boomer affair, but had let it go because of the circumstances previous to the attack. So he may have told Tigh it was time to tighten up on discipline.

But personally, I have a bit of trouble with this. Under the circumstances (almost no population left, extreme stress, etc.) a better choice would have been to take a more pragmatic view toward such relationships. The problems stemming from Tyrol/Boomer (assuming she wasn't a Cylon for the moment) was not that their relationship undermined discipline. It was the *secrecy* and the lying, and Tyrol's crew trying to cover up for him. The entire investigation could have stayed on track if everyone had been able to say, "The Chief was with Boomer."

Just imo :-)

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with you too. One thing that does bother me though is the constant refrain that Roslin's qualifications for the presidency are questionable (not really a dig at what you say, just me getting defensive over a criticism I've heard all too often of her). I can't really see that she's any more jumped-up than any of the rest of them. She's been in politics for 20 years, part of the cabinet, worked closely with Prez Adar and his team, etc. How is she less qualified than Adama? He was was Commander of an aging Battlestar (seems kind of middle management to me), who presumably never commanded at a fleet level, nor was he privy to planning overall war strategies etc at the higher levels of the military. Though I can see why he was reluctant to cede any of his de facto power to her when she was an unknown quantity, in the meantime she's proven herself a shrewd and effective politician, who has skills Adama clearly lacks. Yet still, he trusts her not at all to make decisions impacting the entire remaining human population.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree with you. She is more qualified than anyone who is left. The problem is Adama doesn't necessarily see her qualified on an absolute scale (if it wasn't for her growing drug-dependent vision, I'd say he is wrong), as it is he has some grounds, though not for reasons he thinks.

Of course, he himself might not be qualified to be the Generalissimo on an absolute scale, but he of course, does not see it that way.

I would say they are about equally qualified (or un). Both are in unexpected positions and are doing their best.

[phylogenetics.livejournal.com]

I believe Roslin *is* unqualifed to be president, more so than Adama is to command his battlestar.

The biggest problem is scope of Roslin's position. There's a vast amount of difference being president and being a cabinet member being *in charge*. Also, she was not responsible for the general policy of an administration, only the part that related to education. I think she's still a shrewed political operative, but it's been stressed throughout the season how much Roslin had to grow as a politician.

The title of 'commander' is a misnomer---a carry over from the original series written by a guy who had no idea how military ranks work. Ron Moore mentioned in his blog that he thought about giving Adama the proper military title but decided to go with the original.

Over at the Skiffy website, some military people pointed out that Adama could really qualify as a lower ranking Admiral, given the size and contigent of the battlestar---however that is still speculation, Adama himself mentioned in the mini that:


Commander Adama: "It's not unknown! I KNOW WHERE IT IS!. Earth... the most guarded secret we have. The location, is only known by the senior commanders of the fleet. And we dared not share it with the public


So I think it's safe to say Adama isn't some middle management within the military, he wasn't top dog, but he had some standing within the military.

I see Adama having to grow less in his role as 'military fleet commander' than Roslin had to grow into her 'presidential role'. Adama's only change is that he has to shepherd/protect the civlian ships. The actual running of the military portion is the same as all that's left is the Galactica---a ship he's been commanding for years. I think Adama is far more in his element as military commander who's job is now to protect himself and the civilian fleet from the cylons than Roslin who has to take charge of the civilians and reorganize society into some semblance of their past lives. What Roslin is doing would tax even President Adar, how does anyone prepare for the post-apocalyptic world? At least with Adama, he's still doing something somewhat familiar with what he's been trained to do: protect the civilians.

Personally, I don't have problem with Roslin's ability to govern, it's her inability to see past the kamella. Her insistance on being the 'dying leader' in a prophecy is faith-based policy at its worst and I lose all respect for her when she does this. Adama, despite all his issues, still sees his job in practical terms. But in the end, both made horrible mistakes which I'm sure the entire fleet will suffer for in the next season.

[kimbari.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't have problem with Roslin's ability to govern, it's her inability to see past the kamella. Her insistance on being the 'dying leader' in a prophecy is faith-based policy at its worst and I lose all respect for her when she does this.

Personally, I don't see it as her "insistance on being the 'dying leader'." She has added it all up and come to the conclusion that she IS the dying leader, this isn't something she arbitrarily *decided*, although it may seem so if you have an anti-religion bias.

She didn't start taking the chamalla based on faith or religion or belief. She started taking the chamalla in an attempt to survive, and if she hadn't had the responsibility of leading the remnants of humanity, which she takes VERY seriously, dropped on her shoulders, there's a good chance she might have eschewed even this "cure" and crawled into a private corner to live out what days she has left. She could have done this but she didn't and I have ALL KINDS of respect for her for taking on that responsibility. (I'm kinda big on personal responsibility, as you might have noticed. :)

Adama said "I didn't know you were religious." Roslin said, "Neither did I." She wasn't. But her visions came true, what Leoben said came true (except about Adama ;), she IS dying, they don't have a clue where Earth is. She saw a chance, based on her visions which have *so far* come true, to find a safe haven for her people. She has been laying down *facts* all along. She laid them down to Adama, who has no faith and brushed them off as irrelevant. She laid them down to Kara, who DOES have faith. And when the FACT that Adama was lying about knowing where Earth was was presented to her, she asked him, he continued to lie and SHE (Kara) made the decision to fetch the arrow, based on faith. And Roslin took responsibility for KARA's actions, also.

I have nothing but respect for a person who will TAKE RESPONSIBILITY. There is damned little of that happening on this planet in this day. It's refreshing to see it on this show. :)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I don't care for Roslin much, because she is out of her depth but does not realize she is. I find her an interesting character, but a part of me just wishes she'd let the military run everything as it would be very efficient.

However, I respect the guts of someone still trying to do the best she can even though she is dying, in pain, and the ultimate survival of the human race is thus, for her, academic.

I do think her interest in prophesy is not purely altruistic. She wants to be special, to not have lived in vain, to be remembered. Human and understandable, but it clouds her judgment.

[phylogenetics.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't see it as her "insistance on being the 'dying leader'." She has added it all up and come to the conclusion that she IS the dying leader, this isn't something she arbitrarily *decided*, although it may seem so if you have an anti-religion bias.


No anti-religious bias, I had no problem with Star Trek: DS9's religious arc where Capt. Sisko was continously pushed into the position as the chosen emissary...in that case, they had time to consider/analyze the god like beings and to come to a definitive conclusion in the context of the world they lived in, the gods of the BSG world is not so concrete, and that's why I find the president's decision to be outlandish. Besides, just b/c someone is responsible doesn't make them a good leader or someone I'd respect as a leader. I guess I'm kind of picky. :)

I do think her interest in prophesy is not purely altruistic. She wants to be special, to not have lived in vain, to be remembered. Human and understandable, but it clouds her judgment.


My sentiment exactly. Desperate times makes people do things they normally wouldn't do, like find god (whether it be a cult or a religion), or participate in alternative medicine which have little history of success.

I see Roslin's action in that vein. When she started to see 'visions', and heard of it's interpretations via Elosha, she saw a chance (perhaps subconsciously) for her death to have *meaning*, to help her people. It must be incredibly helpless for her to be told she's dying at a time when the human race needs her more than ever.

The thing is, dreams and religious stories are vague and easy to inteprete. This was a common theme back on DS9, and Moore hit pretty hard on this---people like to see what they want to see, not what is actually there. I think Moore is playing with that theme again.

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

Commander Adama: "It's not unknown! I KNOW WHERE IT IS!. Earth... the most guarded secret we have. The location, is only known by the senior commanders of the fleet. And we dared not share it with the public

This might be a more convincing argument for his seniority if it weren't pure fabrication on his part. His crew bought it because they have total faith in him. Roslin saw right through it, and at least some of the civilians (Ellen) are suspicious.

At least with Adama, he's still doing something somewhat familiar with what he's been trained to do: protect the civilians.

Er, not quite. Adama's instinct was to get back into the fight whatever the cost. It was Roslin who convinced him that the safety of the civilians should come foremost.


Personally, I don't have problem with Roslin's ability to govern, it's her inability to see past the kamella. Her insistance on being the 'dying leader' in a prophecy is faith-based policy at its worst and I lose all respect for her when she does this. Adama, despite all his issues, still sees his job in practical terms. But in the end, both made horrible mistakes which I'm sure the entire fleet will suffer for in the next season.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the religious aspect either, but I can see how she *logically* came to the conclusion that she needed to pay attention to the prophecies. But generally I agree with you. These two work best when they work together. They both have flaws and they both have strengths.