I don't just like Asian epics

[dangermousie]

See this trailer for the upcoming HBO show based on Game of Thrones, G.R.R. Martin's fantasy epic set in a quasi-Medieval world:

Shivers.

Shivers.

And I speak as someone who's never read a word of the novels.

Based purely on the trailer (a) this looks so much my thing - it makes me think of Icelandic sagas I used to love (someone adapt Laxdaela Saga into a show already) (b) I am going to love Sean Bean's character so very much. I always go for the honorable ones (sorry, queenofthorns, I know you are a huge Jaime fan but Ned Stark seems much more my type).

Comments

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I much prefer Ned to Jamie myself, and his wife* is my favorite character. Actually, while I appreciate Jamie and his arc, I've never really been into him, and there's something he does that's one of those things that kind of creates a wall that makes me not able to ever really like a character no matter what happens. (Though unlike, say, Damon Salvatore, I don't have to squash the urge to arbitrarily judge if anyone defends him. Just more a "not my thing" bit.)

I'm actually looking forward to Camelot a bit more, I think, but I'm not sure. Oh, my anticipation of epic TV dramas with swords that I don't have to have subtitles for...

*Who is one of the 3 most hated characters in the fandom. The other 2 are her daughters.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I spoiled myself rotten for the GoT characters and I honestly do not understand how Cat can be the most hated. I mean, I can see someone not liking her (or any other character, really, tastes differ) but a big fandom hatred seems bizarre. She seems like an upright person and a good wife/mother who's had some horrible things happen to her family and now she wants revenge.

Re: Jaime. If you mean (a) incest (b) throwing a little kid off the roof to kill him then yes. I don't want him to painfully die or anything but nothing he can ever do afterwards would redeem that, for me.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

I really urge you to read the books; I think Martin did a remarkab job of making Jaime far more complicated than the bare statement of his crimes would suggest. Also the incest doesn't bother kendo much in these books as in real life because the former royal family basically institutionalized sibling incest so it's not as OUT there. (And Jaime has an amazing scene that I think will appeal to the romantic in you but it's not until book 3.)

He's also punished pretty severely for his transgressions and I am sure he won't make it Pinot the series alive.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I look at the length of those things and the number and my heart blanches within me - I don't have the world's best patience with epically long fantasy series. But if I like the show, I probably will be more inspired.

Re: incest. Here is where it being a fantasy world comes into play. I'd probably be icked out if it was set in ancient Egyptian royal family but at least I know they were constrained by historical facts. Fantasy is not historical so even if within that fantasy world it's normal, I don't have the bastion 'it really happened' as back-up and my inhibitions and grossed-out factor is in full force.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

I think the Lannisters are actually at least partially based on the Borgias and that was certainly a rumor flying around about Lucrezia (or really, about any Renaissance lady whom people wished to discredit such as Anne Boleyn!)

The incest isn't actually presented as desirable or good (the royal family who practiced it had a fair share of maniacs to show for all that inbreeding, and Jaime & Cersei do some very bad things to protect their very bad secret. They're also guilty of treason, since she's the Queen!) So I think we're MEANT to be icked out by it, but ... it's also not something that they being as conscious adults, really? I dunno, it's hard to explain. I keep falling back on "it's really complicated" but you know, obviously, read/watch and make up your own mind!

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of the hate comes from the fact that her arc kind of casts a REALLY negative light on the actions of a lot of men who may be best summarized as a Good Ol' Boys Club, but are traditionally Heroic And Upstanding. There are some things she wants/urges that lead to bad things (though her motivations made sense to me) but 9 times out of 10, she says "No, men, doing A is a bad thing!" and mean so "Go sit in the corner and be ornamental!" and dop A and...bad things happen. Also, she's like, awful for leaving her 2 young sons in a fortress surrounded by people who loved them to stay with and try to protect the son who was being used as a powerplay by men who only cared if he lived to get what they wanted, and THE ONLY THING that endangered the two younger sons was, naturally, something she specifically said was a bad idea and would endanger them, but was told to shut up about.

There's also Jon. And I do agree that she was awful to him in a certain part (Though, unlike most of fandom, I basically think that she just ignored him aside from seeing that he had proper care, as opposed to ever mistreated him. Boy was housed, fed, clothed, educated and shows no signs of neglect and she didn't punish him for hanging around her kids or anything. She just didn't like him.) but I think, that her issue there was that Ned refused to explain Jon to her and just installed him in her home, and since that's probably the only thing he ever really kept from her, I think it led her to always worry that she was "second best" with him somehow, and that knowing that wasn't really rational of her made it worse.

Jaime: Mostly B. A doesn't bug me as much in and of itself because it's a part of their cultural heritage and history, but it does bug me in terms of what happens to and with other characters because of it, and there's actually one incident that is, at best, of very dubious consent. (They're separated for a while and he decides they have to have sex immediately and she's "What? No! Later! When we aren't in a church!" and he ignores her.)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the explanation. Great to see all fandoms love female characters so. *exasperated sigh*

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

There are lots of female characters (many of whom are beloved) and even lots of people who love Catelyn Stark (I'm one of them, and many of the ASOIAF fans on my friends' list are too.) You know, there are some nuts in fandom, as there are in all fandoms. Not to worry, there are plenty of rational, sane and really rewarding discussions in this fandom :D

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I'm lucky in that the crazy parts actually don't overlap with anyone I interact with at all. I just know it's there and hear a lot/get linked by people who do interact with the crazy parts. (That said, I suspect that once it airs, I'm going to be skimming posts from some people who may get into it through the show.)

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Cat gets blamed for a lot of bad decisions by other people (and for being manipulated by an absolutely master manipulator), that's for sure. I just get really irritated by people who think she's *WHINY* - it's not like she has no cause.

As for the incident you mentioned with Jaime, I think ... there's more to it than just long separation. There's also some pretty serious emotional trauma (on both sides) and their whole relationship has been to seek each other for comfort, usually of a sexual nature. So I think I just interpret that differently than you do.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Oh, I agree there's way more to it, but consent is basically my biggest fictional trigger, and anything that can be boiled down to "A said yes, B said no/was given no option, A used physical ability/superpowers/drugs/scifi tech to get it" gets a big boot from me.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Wait I don't think anyone hates Arya! Sansa, yes, but I've never heard anyone say anything bad about Arya, even among the people who really dislike Catelyn, perhaps because Arya is so Starkish.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I've seen some nasty stuff. Not the "EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE IS CAT/SANSA'S FAULT!" bit but apparently she's, like, not nice enough or something. Most of it I've been linked to instead of stumbling across on my own, though.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yeah, I spend a lot of time on ASOIAF forums, and while Cat/Sansa despising seems to be fairly widespread (although Sansa's having an upswing in popularity :P) I've never seen anyone say anything bad about Arya, other than to worry about her mental/emotional trajectory. Which worries me too, to be honest, at this juncture! I think Arya fits into the "tomboy/despises girlie things" mode that a lot of people love in female heroes, you know?

The other female character who gets lots of disparagement, IMO, is Brienne. Whom I love utterly.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

LOL. And see, I've never seen anyone say a single bad thing about Brienne. (But then, my friends who read the books are Jaime fans* and big Brienne/Jaime shippers, or Catelyn fans.

I admit, I'm fond of Arya and am very concerned about what's happening with her (and I'm one of those who thinks there's a link between the kids and the wolves, and that part of why Sansa's consistently so lost-aside from the fact that she's probably got it the worst of everyone[some others may technically have it worse, but they aren't kids trapped in an impossible situation with no means of defense or escape]-is that she no longer has hers) but I have considerably less investment in her than Cat, Sansa, Cersei and Dany.


*"fans" here used for "favorite character"