Detailed thoughts on BSG 2.01: Scattered
Jul. 19th, 2005 05:25 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dangermousieAnd now for something completely different.
Yes, it’s a BSG post. I am a bit more coherent now, and have gotten at least some of my HP thoughts out of the way.
This will be rather Roslin-centric. But there is other stuff as well. Spoilers for “Scattered,” of course.
I thought it interesting that when the guard in the brig addressed Roslin as the Prophet, she did not flinch a bit. Now, most of us would be freaked by that, but she does not even pause for a second. I believe she truly views herself as a prophet, but an additional part of it is that Roslin is a politician, and a consummate one. She must realize that if she is viewed as a religious figurehead, a Moses of the Colonies, she will have an unshakeable power base that Adama would never be able to topple. A politician is replaceable. A prophet? No. If she builds (or acquires) a core of people who believe in her religious destiny, she could never be removed. As it stands, she has no people who are passionately loyal to her (with the possible exception of Billy who, if political intern, likely has political idealism, and also knows that the only reason he is alive is because he was on that plane with Roslin), the way all the military is devoted to Adama. She is a default President. She might have people who will side with her even without agreeing (the way Apollo did in KLG2), but there is no passionate devotion. But if she is a prophet, all that changes.
You can see throughout how competent a politician she is. She tries to talk to Tigh and he blows her off and she doesn’t try again. She realizes that it’s pointless. Tigh is Adama’s man, and she can’t appeal to either his self-interest or his political principles. He is uninterested in the political background of Adama’s coup. For him, it’s enough that Adama ordered it and there is no point to pursue further.
It’s just the same with Kara and Lee. Roslin knows that a huge reason Kara is doing what she is doing by going off at the end of S1 is not because she views Roslin as the Prophesied One or any of that stuff. It’s because she feels betrayed by Adama. But once again, I don’t think Roslin cares for underpinnings of Kara’s reasoning, she only cares for her actions, which will be beneficial to Roslin’s plan.
And of course she knows not to bring the Prophet card with Lee. He strikes me as quite skeptical, and she knows she will not get any results that way. She knows she can rely on his innate belief in good civil government. And I think she did use her cancer info in a very specific way, on him included, to get just that dollop of sympathy and privilege (she told me this great secret and no one else), that might tip the scales more in her favor. She might have lost any caring, emotional, personal liking he’s had for her by 2.01. It started with Kara’s leaving, and her surrendering after he’s put a gun to Tigh’s head (though I don’t think it was for nothing. It avoided bloodshed, at least), but I think what really ended it was Adama getting shot, and Lee not being able to stop it, and his father potentially dying thinking his son betrayed him. There is none of the warmth in their interaction in 2.01 that there was in e.g. Bastille Day. But you know what? It doesn’t matter. Because Lee is committed to good government, and he will still support Roslin whatever his personal feelings towards her. And she knows that, and I believe it’s a price she is willing to pay.
On Gaeta: there’s speculation going around that he is a Cylon, but I don’t buy it. He is the one who plots the jumps. He could have delivered them to the Cylons any time in the past two months. He strikes me as someone who is always so stiff and still because there is so much constant nervious interference running on that it becomes a constant motion. Basically he is awfully nervous and “high-strung.” And, surprisingly, Tigh knows how to handle him really well and doesn’t blame him.
I also think the reason no one thought to check the crashed into Galactica ship for Cylons is because they simply have no resources. They are stretched paper-thin, witness Apollo returning to duty (and yes, I agree with Hornblower comparisons). Of course, it must be weird to be commanded by a man who returns to the brig once the flight is over. It was wonderful to see Lee try to pull himself together after his complete loss of control in the first half of the episode (screaming as he is literally dragged away, his explosion at the guard about the cuffs). Now that you really see what kind of mess he is and the temper he has, it’s all the more fascinating to watch him so controlled, and I am impressed by his strength of will in holding it in the way he does.
And I still (even on rewatch) found Tigh hitting Boomer both understandable and awfully uncomfortable to watch. Because her hands are bound and she is wounded and he is twice her size. I love the complexities. And the thing is, she can never truly die no matter how much she wants it, because if she does, her consciousness will just be downloaded into a new body (though can Cylons share consciousness? It seems so, if G-Boomer’s comments to Starbuck about first meeting her as C-Boomer are any indication).
Also, since Adama runs on personal loyalty, as I posited earlier, there is another reason why Roslin’s convincing of Starbuck makes him so boiling mad. To him, trying to make someone disloyal is the worst sin there is. And that's why he and Apollo often don't see eye to eye. Apollo loves him and Adama knows it. But he knows he will never do something simply out of loyalty. He has to agree it's a good thing, first. Unlike Tigh and Starbuck (at least pre KLG) for whom "Adama said" is a good reason enough. Apollo would never follow anyone unless he analyzed it to his satisfaction and agreed with it, first.
Yes, it’s a BSG post. I am a bit more coherent now, and have gotten at least some of my HP thoughts out of the way.
This will be rather Roslin-centric. But there is other stuff as well. Spoilers for “Scattered,” of course.
I thought it interesting that when the guard in the brig addressed Roslin as the Prophet, she did not flinch a bit. Now, most of us would be freaked by that, but she does not even pause for a second. I believe she truly views herself as a prophet, but an additional part of it is that Roslin is a politician, and a consummate one. She must realize that if she is viewed as a religious figurehead, a Moses of the Colonies, she will have an unshakeable power base that Adama would never be able to topple. A politician is replaceable. A prophet? No. If she builds (or acquires) a core of people who believe in her religious destiny, she could never be removed. As it stands, she has no people who are passionately loyal to her (with the possible exception of Billy who, if political intern, likely has political idealism, and also knows that the only reason he is alive is because he was on that plane with Roslin), the way all the military is devoted to Adama. She is a default President. She might have people who will side with her even without agreeing (the way Apollo did in KLG2), but there is no passionate devotion. But if she is a prophet, all that changes.
You can see throughout how competent a politician she is. She tries to talk to Tigh and he blows her off and she doesn’t try again. She realizes that it’s pointless. Tigh is Adama’s man, and she can’t appeal to either his self-interest or his political principles. He is uninterested in the political background of Adama’s coup. For him, it’s enough that Adama ordered it and there is no point to pursue further.
It’s just the same with Kara and Lee. Roslin knows that a huge reason Kara is doing what she is doing by going off at the end of S1 is not because she views Roslin as the Prophesied One or any of that stuff. It’s because she feels betrayed by Adama. But once again, I don’t think Roslin cares for underpinnings of Kara’s reasoning, she only cares for her actions, which will be beneficial to Roslin’s plan.
And of course she knows not to bring the Prophet card with Lee. He strikes me as quite skeptical, and she knows she will not get any results that way. She knows she can rely on his innate belief in good civil government. And I think she did use her cancer info in a very specific way, on him included, to get just that dollop of sympathy and privilege (she told me this great secret and no one else), that might tip the scales more in her favor. She might have lost any caring, emotional, personal liking he’s had for her by 2.01. It started with Kara’s leaving, and her surrendering after he’s put a gun to Tigh’s head (though I don’t think it was for nothing. It avoided bloodshed, at least), but I think what really ended it was Adama getting shot, and Lee not being able to stop it, and his father potentially dying thinking his son betrayed him. There is none of the warmth in their interaction in 2.01 that there was in e.g. Bastille Day. But you know what? It doesn’t matter. Because Lee is committed to good government, and he will still support Roslin whatever his personal feelings towards her. And she knows that, and I believe it’s a price she is willing to pay.
On Gaeta: there’s speculation going around that he is a Cylon, but I don’t buy it. He is the one who plots the jumps. He could have delivered them to the Cylons any time in the past two months. He strikes me as someone who is always so stiff and still because there is so much constant nervious interference running on that it becomes a constant motion. Basically he is awfully nervous and “high-strung.” And, surprisingly, Tigh knows how to handle him really well and doesn’t blame him.
I also think the reason no one thought to check the crashed into Galactica ship for Cylons is because they simply have no resources. They are stretched paper-thin, witness Apollo returning to duty (and yes, I agree with Hornblower comparisons). Of course, it must be weird to be commanded by a man who returns to the brig once the flight is over. It was wonderful to see Lee try to pull himself together after his complete loss of control in the first half of the episode (screaming as he is literally dragged away, his explosion at the guard about the cuffs). Now that you really see what kind of mess he is and the temper he has, it’s all the more fascinating to watch him so controlled, and I am impressed by his strength of will in holding it in the way he does.
And I still (even on rewatch) found Tigh hitting Boomer both understandable and awfully uncomfortable to watch. Because her hands are bound and she is wounded and he is twice her size. I love the complexities. And the thing is, she can never truly die no matter how much she wants it, because if she does, her consciousness will just be downloaded into a new body (though can Cylons share consciousness? It seems so, if G-Boomer’s comments to Starbuck about first meeting her as C-Boomer are any indication).
Also, since Adama runs on personal loyalty, as I posited earlier, there is another reason why Roslin’s convincing of Starbuck makes him so boiling mad. To him, trying to make someone disloyal is the worst sin there is. And that's why he and Apollo often don't see eye to eye. Apollo loves him and Adama knows it. But he knows he will never do something simply out of loyalty. He has to agree it's a good thing, first. Unlike Tigh and Starbuck (at least pre KLG) for whom "Adama said" is a good reason enough. Apollo would never follow anyone unless he analyzed it to his satisfaction and agreed with it, first.
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no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:42 pm (UTC)Also, since Adama runs on personal loyalty, as I posited earlier, there is another reason why Roslin’s convincing of Starbuck makes him so boiling mad. To him, trying to make someone disloyal is the worst sin there is.
I especially agree here. Adama can't accept that Starbuck would go behind his back even though *technically*, Starbuck is legally following orders. And that is why Adama has such a hard time with his son, while Starbuck will do what the Old Man says, Lee will do what is right.
Liked your analysis of Roslin....does make her a bit cold and calculating, doesn't it? I LOVED how Lee told Roslin that he didn't do it for her, b/c I think quite a few people thought he did do it for her. Lee doesn't function that way, something Adama doesn't understand and Roslin is only beginning to.
I think it will complicates things alot when we have to choose between a drugged up politician who acquires a religious following, and a military man who commands such personal loyalty people are willing to obey illegal orders. Poor Lee, caught between the two, but in some ways, b/c of his close emotional proximity to both, he's in a good position to give them the finger! :p
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:58 pm (UTC)It does not make her a worse or less effective leader (her belief in the literalness of the prophesies does that).
And I agree with you on Lee. Of course, his closeness to both might help him to get away with more than he could otherwise.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 01:53 pm (UTC)But what if the propheses are true? In my opinion, there's no reason to think that just because in our world things like propheses are probably not real means that in BSG-world the same holds true.
If the propheses are true, and are literal, then she is not a lesser leader because of her belief in them. If they are true, then she is doing exactly what she has to to save the species.
I agree that Roslin is calculating, and can be ruthless, but I don't think she's cold. I think she cares about the people she nominally leads more than she even lets us as viewers know. I don't think her fight is for more power, I think her fight is to save humans.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 02:20 pm (UTC)I really hope that they are not literally true, however, because then it would just become "up with our imaginary religion" show, and not really my kind of thing.
She cares under the 50K people in her care. But in a rather dispassionate way. Not a weakness, just a personal trait.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:44 pm (UTC)I love your take on Lee's temper - that hadn't clicked for me, but you're absolutely right.
Lee approaches most everything in an abstract, intellectualized way - his approach to Zarek in Bastille Day is an early example of what you've described in the evolution of his relationship to Roslin (and I suspect there may be more than a few parallels there).
Tigh's utter loyalty I expect will be an inoculation against Zarek/Ellen's inevitable attempts at manipulation - and *might* give him an opportunity to step up. Or not...
Great stuff!
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:46 pm (UTC)I've been in the "Gaeta's a cylon" camp since the mini, but you make a good case...
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:52 pm (UTC)It's not impossible that Gaeta is a Cylon. If it was revealed in the next ep (or next season, or whenever), I would not be shocked and scream "Nooooo!" It just seems unlikely to me, because he could have plotted their jump into a star and incinerated them all, months ago. Or he could just have let the Cylons penetrate the firewall in 2.01.
I do think BSG is probably less powerful than other battlestars, because its computers are not connected (see how much more efficient it was with the network). But of course, the other battlestars paid for that.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:56 pm (UTC)I'm deep in reading your posts - I like your stuff!
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:59 pm (UTC)If the Cylons are indeed "herding" the humans, than yes, that could work.
In which case I wonder if there was any purpose in separating Galactica temporarily.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 10:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 10:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 10:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 12:03 am (UTC)...the Cylons did penetrate the firewall in 2.01.
There's a framegrab going around. They made it all the way through to the four systems. Step through it as he's yanking cables - the display shows infection before flickering and coming back up all-green-everywhere.
Neat, huh?
I'm also in the stage-management camp. I think that one of the big things of this season needs to be the fleet figuring that out and breaking out of Cylon control.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 02:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:55 pm (UTC)Tigh's utter loyalty I expect will be an inoculation against Zarek/Ellen's inevitable attempts at manipulation - and *might* give him an opportunity to step up.
It seems that Ellen has little power in influencing how Tigh runs the ship (e.g. she wants Gaeta punished and Tigh ignores her completely). If there is political hanky-panky, Tigh is out of his depth. But I must say, as yet another reluctant leader who is in a position he didn't want, he is doing wonderfully well. I know a lot of people aren't fond of him, but I really like his character.
Re: Lee's intellectualized approach. This is one of the main reasons I like him. He is willing to throw rationality to the winds (e.g. in search for Starbuck) but he is generally really good in separating personal and important. Of course, his ways of thinking are more flexible because unlike Roslin (President now, top politician for a while) and Adama (commander for a very long time) he does not expect people to obey just because he says so, so in an unorthodox situation (coup, Zarek) he is capable with coming up with creative solutions.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:58 pm (UTC)And I'd like to see Tigh pull it together. I was actually thoroughly impressed with his performance in 2.01 - I thought he handled acting command quite well. Of course, the stress is just *starting*... *g*
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 10:01 pm (UTC)Indeed. Now that Galactica is back with the fleet, surely the whole "President is in the brig" issue will come up, right away. Baltar is on Kobol, so helllloooo Tom Zarek!
Re: Lee. He is probably my favorite character, and not entirely for shallow reasons either. I generally gravitate towards capable, reserved, but emotionally troubled characters in fiction.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 10:17 pm (UTC)Re: Lee. He is probably my favorite character, and not entirely for shallow reasons either.
Hey! What's wrong with the shallow reasons? :)
I generally gravitate towards capable, reserved, but emotionally troubled characters in fiction.
Actually, what attracted me to Lee was his relationship with his father...the whole Prince Hal makes for such good drama!
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 10:29 pm (UTC)You pegged Apollo perfectly I think.
I thought it was very important that Lee told her that he hadn't done it for her - and frankly, she didn't look terribly surprised. I don't think that Roslin is cold - but she is clever. And she does feel that she is the woman for the job that is ahead and so she will do whatever it takes. She believes in the prophecy at this point.
I do think she also genuinely was concerned for Adama. She does like and respect him. He has proven to be a thinking man in times past - despite this last action he took. She knows that he is a formidable foe and has the unswerving loyalty of many. But she also knows that she needs him working in tangent with her.
I couldn't believe my eyes when no one had gone to check the crash - but then perhaps they were on their way - and that is what we'll see in the next ep.
Great write up.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 10:43 pm (UTC)I do think she also genuinely was concerned for Adama.
Agreed. Adama is the best Galactica commander she can get. Roslin knows her limits and she knows she is neither capable nor likely to be able to command a Battlestar. And she can work my easier with Adama than e.g. Tigh.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 11:23 pm (UTC)This seems like a very harsh way of putting it. I think she genuinely likes and respects Adama (as jenahna said above). OTOH, she doesn't entirely trust him to always think with his brain, or keep his priorities in order. And with good reason, given some of his past decision making.
He's the one who took her actions in KLG personally; it was not the other way around. But she'll never put a friendship above than the goal of doing whatever she can to save humanity, and if he chooses to "unfriend" her because of it...well, so be it.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 11:26 pm (UTC)She might still like him of course. But regardless of whether she does, or not, he is still the best person to run the Galactica and she knows it.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 11:31 pm (UTC)She said, "I'm sorry I got you into this."
He assumes she thinks he did it out of some kind of personal loyalty and bites her head off.
Laura doesn't get defensive and try to explain that she meant she was taking responsibility for having created the situation that forced him to make a choice. Just not her way, and I really admire her for it. But honestly, I can't imagine why she would have thought he did it for *her*--she knows Lee better than that. He may like her as a friend, but what he'll stand up for is the Articles of the Twelve Colonies.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 11:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 12:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 03:48 pm (UTC)Again - she didn't seem surprised by his admission. But I think he was a bit.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 12:12 am (UTC)I didn't see it quite that way. No, she didn't look shocked, but she didn't look very happy about it it either. She is not jumping in to embrace this role. But she will accept it, if she believes its the best way to achieve the goal of getting the people somewhere safe so they can rebuild their civilization.
She must realize that if she is viewed as a religious figurehead, a Moses of the Colonies, she will have an unshakeable power base that Adama would never be able to topple. A politician is replaceable. A prophet? No. If she builds (or acquires) a core of people who believe in her religious destiny, she could never be removed.
If she was so keen to play that card, why didn't she announce it to the assembled press when Adama called her up to insist she resign? "You know, folks, Commander Adama totally lied when he said he knew where Earth was. However, events from the Pythian scrolls have been playing out...(she makes her case)." My guess would be that many, if not most, of his crew are believers (otherwise his lie wouldn't have worked in the first place), who would have been quite shaken by the revelation.
It’s just the same with Kara and Lee. Roslin knows that a huge reason Kara is doing what she is doing by going off at the end of S1 is not because she views Roslin as the Prophesied One or any of that stuff. It’s because she feels betrayed by Adama. But once again, I don’t think Roslin cares for underpinnings of Kara’s reasoning, she only cares for her actions, which will be beneficial to Roslin’s plan.
Don't forget that Roslin doesn't know Kara anywhere near as well as we, the viewers, do. She knows that both Adamas regard Kara with so much affection that they'd risk survival of the fleet for her. She knows Kara was enganged to Zak. She knows that Kara planned the operation in "Hand of God", and she observed some of Kara's ham-handed interogation of Leobon. Someone (Elosha, perhaps?) evidently told her that Kara is a believer. But that's about all.
What Roslin told Kara was only the truth about what had been happening to her (Kara didn't have to take it literally). She only told her about Adama's lie when Kara threw his supposed knowledge of Earth's whereabouts up as a reason not to believe her.
Kara didn't "feel" betrayed by Adama--she *was* betrayed by Adama. They all were. He cynically used their religious beliefs--beliefs he pointedly does not share--to manipulate them "for their own good". Roslin has come to share those beliefs, and told Kara the truth as she knew it.
And I think she did use her cancer info in a very specific way, on him included, to get just that dollop of sympathy and privilege (she told me this great secret and no one else), that might tip the scales more in her favor.
I thought it was odd that she told him too. But I think her reason had more to do with wanting him to understand that she wasn't against holding elections in 7 months because she wants to hold power forever. Elections had been off her radar because she doesn't expect to live out her entire legal term. That's an explanation, not a manipulation.
continuing (cos it told me my post was too long)
Date: 2005-07-20 12:14 am (UTC)This was something that confused me too. If the members of the same model clone line share consciousness, then why would they need to download into a new body?
Also, since Adama runs on personal loyalty, as I posited earlier, there is another reason why Roslin’s convincing of Starbuck makes him so boiling mad. To him, trying to make someone disloyal is the worst sin there is.
I think there's a fair bit of guilt and denial fueling his rage at Roslin. Roslin didn't make Starbuck disloyal--Adama did that himself when he lied to her. At some level he has to know that; it's just easier to lash out at someone else when you frak up that badly. But eventually he will face up to his own responsibility in this--that's what makes him a great man. (imo)
Re: continuing (cos it told me my post was too long)
Date: 2005-07-20 12:31 am (UTC)I was assuming that they didn't so much share consciousness in the sense that each Cylon is constantly aware of what all of the rest of their copies are experiencing, but rather that when new copies are activated they're maybe imprinted with the other's memories up to that point.
Which would be why Boomer2 would remember how she met Starbuck, since that was before Boomer2 was activated on Caprica, but still wouldn't necessarily know what exactly was happening with Boomer1 on Galactica at the moment.
Of course, that still means that they are able to transmit information without a body dying, but my fanwankery muscles are tired right now, so I got nothing. Except for acknowledgement of the fact that it is necessary to the Cylon's plan for Boomer2 to have memories of all of Boomer1's experiences since that would be key in how she interacted with Helo. So maybe she's a special case. Whatever.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 12:38 am (UTC)I don't think it was cynical in the sense that Adama wasn't thinking "ha ha ha, I FOOLED THEM!" It's not as easy as that - Adama was right, at the time, in thinking that they needed something, an ideal beyond the mere animal instinct of survival, that would make them capable of striving to go on, rather than just laying everything down and dying as nearly everyone they knew had.
And Kara's sense of betrayal by Adama is huge, yes, but I keep coming back to the fact that she lied to him for two years - a lie of omission, yes, but a lie nonetheless - about how his son had died and I think she would have gone on lying to him had Lee not inadvertently tipped her hand, and he forgave her for that massive and very personal betrayal whereas his lie was not specifically aimed at Kara and was not done for personal gain, although as you say, there's a quality of "father knows best about it."
I love that the show is so complicated that I can simultaneously see both Adama's AND Kara's points of view in this matter and I can sympathize and be angry with BOTH of them. The one thing, that for me, is absolutely true is that Adama is wrong about Roslin's coercing Kara - and it denies Kara any agency in what she chose to do. Roslin laid out the facts for Kara and yes, she did in a way that made it likely Kara would see her side in the matter, but ... again, she's doing this with the very best of intentions.
I love how all their political and personal motives are a giant stew - although I think it is, in general, true that Adama and Kara (and Tigh) operate based on personal loyalties; and Roslin and Lee seem to think more long-term and more abstract goals.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 02:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 02:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-20 02:23 pm (UTC)I don't think she thought of it at that point. I think the coup brought home to her just how little actual power backup she has. Plus, I don't think the press conference would havw worked. Even religious Kara would have probably found it a stretch, and an average person probably is less religious. However, if it spreads slowly and organically, it's much better. It's more believable if it's not she but her followers make the claim.