Life is weirder than dramas
Feb. 26th, 2007 11:04 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dangermousieOi, paging MatsuJun:
Incestuous German pair fight case
A German brother and sister who live as a couple and have four children are going to Germany's highest court to try to legalise their relationship.
The 29-year-old brother has already spent more than two years in prison for sleeping with his sister, and could be incarcerated again, his lawyer said.
The pair are currently drawing up an appeal to take before Germany's constitutional court.
They argue they are being denied the right to sexual freedom.
The pair did not grow up together. Patrick, the brother, had been adopted by a couple from Potsdam while his sister, Susan, grew up with their mother.
But when he reached adulthood he wanted to track down his biological parents. He found his mother, and he met Susan.
About six months later, the mother died, and Patrick moved in with Susan. In 2001, their son, Erik, was born. He was subsequently taken into foster care.
Three more children were born between 2003 and 2005. In November of that year, the pair were tried for incest.
Patrick was sentenced to two-and-a-half years in prison. His sister, then 21, was put into the care of youth services.
According to Spiegel online, while Patrick was in prison Susan had a fifth child with another man.
Their lawyer, Endrik Wilhelm, told the BBC News website that the pair are now living together again and plan to lodge their case within six weeks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6379785.stm
Seriously, this sounds like something out of a Korean drama.
And yes, I do have plenty to say on Beautiful Life. I am only on ep 3 because of having to work all weekend with literally no free time, but if I loved it more than I do now, I'd probably have a coronary, or something.
Incestuous German pair fight case
A German brother and sister who live as a couple and have four children are going to Germany's highest court to try to legalise their relationship.
The 29-year-old brother has already spent more than two years in prison for sleeping with his sister, and could be incarcerated again, his lawyer said.
The pair are currently drawing up an appeal to take before Germany's constitutional court.
They argue they are being denied the right to sexual freedom.
The pair did not grow up together. Patrick, the brother, had been adopted by a couple from Potsdam while his sister, Susan, grew up with their mother.
But when he reached adulthood he wanted to track down his biological parents. He found his mother, and he met Susan.
About six months later, the mother died, and Patrick moved in with Susan. In 2001, their son, Erik, was born. He was subsequently taken into foster care.
Three more children were born between 2003 and 2005. In November of that year, the pair were tried for incest.
Patrick was sentenced to two-and-a-half years in prison. His sister, then 21, was put into the care of youth services.
According to Spiegel online, while Patrick was in prison Susan had a fifth child with another man.
Their lawyer, Endrik Wilhelm, told the BBC News website that the pair are now living together again and plan to lodge their case within six weeks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6379785.stm
Seriously, this sounds like something out of a Korean drama.
And yes, I do have plenty to say on Beautiful Life. I am only on ep 3 because of having to work all weekend with literally no free time, but if I loved it more than I do now, I'd probably have a coronary, or something.
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no subject
Date: 2007-02-27 04:09 am (UTC)Nah, I don't think they should be acquitted. Incest is basically a crime because of the threat of emotional abuse (there's the idea that in a parental (or parent-like, which I think this is) there's a power structure which limits the "victim's" ability to say no, much like if your boss propositions you) and the genetic repercussions. Regardless if their private, emotional lives, they're recklessly risking serious harm to unborn (or born, possibly) children. It's the same idea of sending a woman to prison for refusing to seek help for her alcoholism as she continues to get pregnant, even though many of her subsequent children are suffering from brain damage.
I'd argue for their right to sleep with each other (even though I really do think there's some serious WTF in that, but hey, you don't need to be siblings to be in an abusive relationship), but continue to have kids? No. Their freedom ends when it directly effects another person's well-being, which is what's at risk for any kids they want to have. And that's what the incest laws are there for -- and because Germany, of all countries, might be skittish on ruling who can and cannot have kids (with good reason!) -- I think they should be found guilty and possibly separated.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-27 05:06 am (UTC)If he is found to have taken advantage of a minor, that is what statutory rape is for (and if she was 16, as I say, my math is fuzzy, but I am thinking she was slightly older, but whatever), that is too old for statutory rape in most jurisdictions, Europe as well. She was, legally, an adult at that point for purposes of sex (turning over to social services at 21? It is not because she is a kid, because 21 is in no way a child. I remember self at 21 :P)
Is it the most emotionally healthy thing ever? No, I think i's fairly screwed up. But if courts went busting every emotionally unhealthy relationship just because it is? Whoa. I don't like that. It seems to work for the two of them, and they are both legally adults now, so I think they should be allowed to 'cohabit' or whatever the term is. Heck, ein the hypoethtical situation of even if they hooked up when she was 12 or something (eeek), once he served jail time for child molestation, if they still wanted to be together when she was 25, I'd say fine, go ahead (like that weird teacher with the boy student).
Re: childeren. I have severe legal and moral issues with forbidding people (yes, even incestuous siblings) from having children. Yes, kids have a heightened risk of birth defects. But what next? Not allowing mentally handicapped to reproduce? Or what if I have some severe chance of passing some genetic illness down? Or hey, how about all those women with AIDS who are pregnant (like the heroine of Kamisama :D) Should they be banned from reproducing?
I disapprove of all of the above creating offspring but it is not my choice.
So basically, I have a very libertarian approach to all this: they are now (and I'd argue even when they started) consenting adults. So I have no issues with anything they do with each other however morally unappealing I find it. As to kids, at least in the US, courts have held that you can't sue for 'wrongful life' (though in very different context) because hey, being born is better than not living at all, so I can't really be all 'nope, tie her tubes' or whatever, especially because of reasons above.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-27 06:28 am (UTC)1. The article said he was sentenced for incest, not stat rape, and I was aware of that -- I was stating I thought the disparate sentencing (him to jail, her to social services) reflected the nature of that specific situation. The age of consent in Germany is 14 if the other partner is under 21, and 16 otherwise -- unless the older partner is "exploiting a coercive situation" or "exploits the victim's lack of capacity for sexual self-determination." Since he was her caretaker after her mother's death, it's easy to see how the court would find these exceptions applied.
Again, they got him on incest, not stat rape. But I think they took the stat rape clauses into account, considering that he got jail and she got counseling. That was my only point.
2. The kids. Again, I did say that I personally don't see anything wrong with the two shacking up, but having kids together is irresponsible on a scale I can't even express. I am not in favor of laws restricting who breeds with who, never said I was, and was saying that Germany, of all countries, would be skittish about enforcing/creating any laws as such -- which is why they were trying them on incest. The incest law is already on the books, so they can use it to prevent the reckless endangerment of future children. And yeah, it's reckless endangerment (not wrongful life, which is why I used the repeat fetal alcohol syndrome offender example), because we have the medical studies to back it up. (With mental handicapped parents, for instance, while there is a risk, it's not a given until the child is actually born -- and then it's a sitch of wrongful life, not prosecuted, etc. Same with AIDS babies.)
That said, I am all for leaving incest laws on the books. For various reasons.
no subject
Date: 2007-02-27 10:58 am (UTC)You have a point there. I believe, by now they know and shouldn't create more children. There is this line, when should a couple get children if they may risk serious genetic damage. I think currently, and without thinking too deep, that the line may be drawn at brother/sister, mother/son father/daughter without invoking any of these "breeding regulation" situations. So again, I agree, at least with this point :)
Also, you people know more about this case than I. I may look into the case further ...
*grin* I was talking about characters in manga/dramas, but as for the real-life case...
Ow ;)