Life is weirder than dramas

[dangermousie]

Oi, paging MatsuJun:

Incestuous German pair fight case

A German brother and sister who live as a couple and have four children are going to Germany's highest court to try to legalise their relationship.

The 29-year-old brother has already spent more than two years in prison for sleeping with his sister, and could be incarcerated again, his lawyer said.

The pair are currently drawing up an appeal to take before Germany's constitutional court.

They argue they are being denied the right to sexual freedom.

The pair did not grow up together. Patrick, the brother, had been adopted by a couple from Potsdam while his sister, Susan, grew up with their mother.

But when he reached adulthood he wanted to track down his biological parents. He found his mother, and he met Susan.

About six months later, the mother died, and Patrick moved in with Susan. In 2001, their son, Erik, was born. He was subsequently taken into foster care.

Three more children were born between 2003 and 2005. In November of that year, the pair were tried for incest.

Patrick was sentenced to two-and-a-half years in prison. His sister, then 21, was put into the care of youth services.

According to Spiegel online, while Patrick was in prison Susan had a fifth child with another man.

Their lawyer, Endrik Wilhelm, told the BBC News website that the pair are now living together again and plan to lodge their case within six weeks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6379785.stm

Seriously, this sounds like something out of a Korean drama.

And yes, I do have plenty to say on Beautiful Life. I am only on ep 3 because of having to work all weekend with literally no free time, but if I loved it more than I do now, I'd probably have a coronary, or something.

Comments

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

... you know, it's not the incest I find creepy. It's that she was sixteen when their relationship began, and he was almost a decade older. Add the familial bond and that's when it becomes I-may-need-a-shower land, with the mother dead and her being a grieving, confused teenager and him the father-like-figure adult and uuuuuuugh.

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. This may how the whole "incest" kink falls apart/together for me. Siblings that are equal in age, or close to it, it's interesting to see how the characters deal with societal taboo, and what might induce them to defy it -- together, as a unit. As equals.

Anything involving parents, or parental-like (one taking care of the (usually much more) younger one after parents die), squicks me like no other squick. I can't see that as anything but nausea-inducing emotional manipulation and/or abuse.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I didn't even notice the age difference thing. Math not my thing I guess :)

I don't really have an opinion on this couple one way or another (either, 'they are wrong but it's lurve' or 'eeeeeek') but Good God people. Fourt kids! Use contraception! These kids are going to be screwed up when they grow up.

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

Heh, yeeeeaaaaah. That's another thing that speaks to the fucked-up emotional dynamic of that situation -- impregnating a young girl repeatedly is a big power move/manipulation tactic, while the girl's allowance of it speaks for a desperate need for family (possibly to fill the void of mom's death) and a need to feel love that's based in deep insecurity and feeling of abandonment.

I know I'm being an armchair psychologist, which is the worst kind, but I feel like I can just point to issues in the article and go, "That's where it's fucked up, and that's where it's fucked up..." Seriously, it's like the incest thing doesn't even factor. If he was just a random friend of her mom's, I'd be just as weirded out by this older guy taking care of a younger girl after her mother dies, and then popping out babies together even though the kids are taken away by the authorities each time. WTF.

[theblackscorpio.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you say. I think, they should become aquitted, as they did not grow up toghether. I also don't like the 16 - 26 age thing, it would have been sort of more appropriate, if it was, say, 45 and 60...


(signed: theblackscorpio German/Danish chimera)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Makes sense

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

*grin* I was talking about characters in manga/dramas, but as for the real-life case... I'd have to disagree. Note that the girl wasn't sentenced for jail time (or threatened with such) until she became a legal adult -- before (as a teenager) she was sent to social services. It's that kind of thing which underlines the Lolita-esque factor of it all -- a sixteen-year-old taken in and impregnated by an adult male after her mother dies, leaving her without any family or other recourse. And then there's the fact of the two of them having children even though I'm sure they know of the genetic risk to each, and that they're being taken away from them regardless...

Nah, I don't think they should be acquitted. Incest is basically a crime because of the threat of emotional abuse (there's the idea that in a parental (or parent-like, which I think this is) there's a power structure which limits the "victim's" ability to say no, much like if your boss propositions you) and the genetic repercussions. Regardless if their private, emotional lives, they're recklessly risking serious harm to unborn (or born, possibly) children. It's the same idea of sending a woman to prison for refusing to seek help for her alcoholism as she continues to get pregnant, even though many of her subsequent children are suffering from brain damage.

I'd argue for their right to sleep with each other (even though I really do think there's some serious WTF in that, but hey, you don't need to be siblings to be in an abusive relationship), but continue to have kids? No. Their freedom ends when it directly effects another person's well-being, which is what's at risk for any kids they want to have. And that's what the incest laws are there for -- and because Germany, of all countries, might be skittish on ruling who can and cannot have kids (with good reason!) -- I think they should be found guilty and possibly separated.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't agree at all. (Respectfully and all that).

If he is found to have taken advantage of a minor, that is what statutory rape is for (and if she was 16, as I say, my math is fuzzy, but I am thinking she was slightly older, but whatever), that is too old for statutory rape in most jurisdictions, Europe as well. She was, legally, an adult at that point for purposes of sex (turning over to social services at 21? It is not because she is a kid, because 21 is in no way a child. I remember self at 21 :P)

Is it the most emotionally healthy thing ever? No, I think i's fairly screwed up. But if courts went busting every emotionally unhealthy relationship just because it is? Whoa. I don't like that. It seems to work for the two of them, and they are both legally adults now, so I think they should be allowed to 'cohabit' or whatever the term is. Heck, ein the hypoethtical situation of even if they hooked up when she was 12 or something (eeek), once he served jail time for child molestation, if they still wanted to be together when she was 25, I'd say fine, go ahead (like that weird teacher with the boy student).

Re: childeren. I have severe legal and moral issues with forbidding people (yes, even incestuous siblings) from having children. Yes, kids have a heightened risk of birth defects. But what next? Not allowing mentally handicapped to reproduce? Or what if I have some severe chance of passing some genetic illness down? Or hey, how about all those women with AIDS who are pregnant (like the heroine of Kamisama :D) Should they be banned from reproducing?

I disapprove of all of the above creating offspring but it is not my choice.

So basically, I have a very libertarian approach to all this: they are now (and I'd argue even when they started) consenting adults. So I have no issues with anything they do with each other however morally unappealing I find it. As to kids, at least in the US, courts have held that you can't sue for 'wrongful life' (though in very different context) because hey, being born is better than not living at all, so I can't really be all 'nope, tie her tubes' or whatever, especially because of reasons above.

[tatterpunk.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I think there's been a miscommunication, so I'll just try as precise and concise as possible:

1. The article said he was sentenced for incest, not stat rape, and I was aware of that -- I was stating I thought the disparate sentencing (him to jail, her to social services) reflected the nature of that specific situation. The age of consent in Germany is 14 if the other partner is under 21, and 16 otherwise -- unless the older partner is "exploiting a coercive situation" or "exploits the victim's lack of capacity for sexual self-determination." Since he was her caretaker after her mother's death, it's easy to see how the court would find these exceptions applied.

Again, they got him on incest, not stat rape. But I think they took the stat rape clauses into account, considering that he got jail and she got counseling. That was my only point.

2. The kids. Again, I did say that I personally don't see anything wrong with the two shacking up, but having kids together is irresponsible on a scale I can't even express. I am not in favor of laws restricting who breeds with who, never said I was, and was saying that Germany, of all countries, would be skittish about enforcing/creating any laws as such -- which is why they were trying them on incest. The incest law is already on the books, so they can use it to prevent the reckless endangerment of future children. And yeah, it's reckless endangerment (not wrongful life, which is why I used the repeat fetal alcohol syndrome offender example), because we have the medical studies to back it up. (With mental handicapped parents, for instance, while there is a risk, it's not a given until the child is actually born -- and then it's a sitch of wrongful life, not prosecuted, etc. Same with AIDS babies.)

That said, I am all for leaving incest laws on the books. For various reasons.

[theblackscorpio.livejournal.com]

And then there's the fact of the two of them having children even though I'm sure they know of the genetic risk to each, and that they're being taken away from them regardless...

You have a point there. I believe, by now they know and shouldn't create more children. There is this line, when should a couple get children if they may risk serious genetic damage. I think currently, and without thinking too deep, that the line may be drawn at brother/sister, mother/son father/daughter without invoking any of these "breeding regulation" situations. So again, I agree, at least with this point :)


Also, you people know more about this case than I. I may look into the case further ...


*grin* I was talking about characters in manga/dramas, but as for the real-life case...

Ow ;)

[janlake83.livejournal.com]

although very disturbing, i must be one of those people who are really desensitized since i know it's gross and ewww... but like love happens and did you know that in the us supposedly in ohio you can marry your first cousin which is still kinda incestous.

although i have to say when your sixteen and you meet an older brother and you mom just died umm that's just wrong to take advantage of someone that is a minor especially when your a decade older. although doesn't this remind you of koi kaze????

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

In one third of states you can marry your first cousin. Maybe it's because I am originally from Europe or maybe because I read too many 19th century novels, but the concept of 1st cousin marriage doesn't bug me at all. Genetically it's not too bad for offspring (as long as you don't do it for generations) and you are usually not brought up as siblings, so eh. I have to state in the interests of disclosure that I have no vested interest or experience in this as all my cousins are girls :P

[janlake83.livejournal.com]

generally in England it's okay to marry your first cousin, it unsures the line and that wealth is staying in the family and i particularly don't mind it but it's still in some places here in states is considered taboo but hey whatever floats there boat

although truly i don't care if cousins marry, and i have no vested interests since my guy cousin whose the same age as me tend to batting for the other team and his not my type...

[fivil.livejournal.com]

I want to believe the tragically incestuous kdrama lovers would be too busy angsting to have 4 kids. I mean, FOUR born-out-of-incest kids. Just ..damn. It's weird how less of an age difference and no kids would make the situation sort of more acceptable.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

LOL! That is the first thing that occured to me too. Four! Leaving aside any health issues for the kids, OMG, those kids are going to be so treated weirdly in school and when they grow up they are likely to be messed up. Sheesh. Contraception is not that expensive and I doubt they aren't using it for fundamentalist religious reasons :D

[fivil.livejournal.com]

Haha, at first I looked at the tags of this post and thought you were idolizing or ironizing their, ahem, "life choice" because the tag said "beautiful life". Phew for that one being a drama.

A drama that I'm increasingly curious about, though it might totally not be my thing. What's the angst-level? Tolerable? ;)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

LOL! I don't particularly care what consenting grown-ups do with each other and with themselves, but I can't say incest is a lifestyle choice I am positive about.

BL is very good, very unserstated, incredibly acted but, how shall I put it, even though it's not angsty so far, the OTP ultimate happiness ain't going to happen (don't want to spoil ya).

[allbloomedout.livejournal.com]

WOW! It does something out of Korean drama! That's just pretty crazy. Now I'm curious if their kids have odd genetic mutations. Is it weird that's the first thing I thought of instead of ewww incest? lol I just feel bad for the kids. They are really going to have hard time at school I bet. Thanks for sharing this. It was really interesting. I really should read the news more often..

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Maybe they have webbed feet? :)

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

o_O... incest is definitely not something I can witness. Just too weird.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

LOL. I don;t think they were inviting watchers but you never know :)

[kitsune714.livejournal.com]

Seriously, how have I not see Twincestapalooza 2007 yet?!

I should really get on Beautiful Life. I've seen bits and pieces of the first and the last 15 minutes of the finale, and while I am aware of its awesomeness, I just haven't been able to work it in. I will, though, definitely--thing is that right now I'm choosing between Ikebukoro West Gate Park (which I never really finished so I'm starting over again--it also features mini!Yamapi and Detective!Ken Watanabe) and Beautiful Life.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

LOL. I haven't seen it yet either.

Beautiful Life! Seriously! Pick it! *sends hypnosis your way*

[miss-dian.livejournal.com]

Gee that really IS weird.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I know. Yikes!