Game of Thrones - episode 1

[dangermousie]

I finally got around to check out the first episode. I liked some of it, had problems with other parts (more below). It's not instant love but not instant loathing so I will check out eps 2-4 and see if they click. So, likes and dislikes (keep in mind I have never read the books).

1. Like: it's gorgeously filmed but also conveys the sense of time and place well. It's fantasy that is very close to real world.

2. Like: all the actors are excellent.

3. Like: Despite lack of familiarity with the characters and the large cast, I had no trouble keeping them apart or following storylines.

4. Dislike: the treatment of women. Except for Catelyn, every other woman who had a speaking part and hit puberty was shown in context of sex (willing or un) with an 'important' male character. WTF! I don't mean the female character did a bunch of things including have sex, no, I mean they were pretty much defined by their sex scenes. Gender treatment fail!

5. Dislike: I am not emotionally invested at all in these people nor am I particularly interested in them. In fact, the only strong feeling I had the whole episode was at the end and it was "ugh, please someone, kill Jaime Lannister" but then, throwing a child out of a window is pretty much designed to get an emotional response from almost any body. Unlike most viewers on my flist, I don't have the book background which would mean that after reading 3+ books you know these characters well and develop feelings for them. I can only go on what is in the pilot and the characters are paper-thin - there is just not much there (or even much time devoted to them) to hook me. Of course, you don't always need ample screentime (I was hooked on Jeremy Irons' Alexander VI in The Borgias in about two minutes) but this instant connection is not here either.

Point five is my biggest problem and that is why I am giving the show more time. It may develop the characters to my satisfaction giving more time.

In conclusion, prettily shot this is:



(Yes, of course, this woman gets raped too. Why do you ask?)

Comments

[rectherapyfreak.livejournal.com]

Don't worry a lot of the female characters become quite strong.

Totally agree with #5. I have read the books but feel it is so hard to get to know the characters because there are so many! I really thought that a TV serie would work very well with this show but I think there are way to many characters!!!

I like the show but love the books.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I wonder if narrowing down the characters might have helped.

[thinking-lotus.livejournal.com]

Dislike: the treatment of women. Except for Catelyn, every other woman who had a speaking part and hit puberty was shown in context of sex (willing or un) with an 'important' male character. WTF! I don't mean the female character did a bunch of things including have sex, no, I mean they were pretty much defined by their sex scenes. Gender treatment fail!


Yes, this on the whole is the problem. Although, ironically perhaps, Danaerys DOESN'T get raped on her wedding night in the book--they have romantic candlelit nomad-tent sex.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

REALLY? Ok, that makes me very pissed off. Because wtf - why change it then, when they don't even have the excuse of "we are following the book/it was needed there for narrative purposes" and, in fact, they are messing with the source for no reason I can see other than provide a "titillating" rape scene. Wtf!!!!

[cranberrysheep.livejournal.com]

Idk, I actually appreciated that change, because Dany is terrified about her marriage to this big scary guy she doesn't know. The whole winning her over on the wedding night with a few gentle touches thing always came off as very male fantasy to me. Especially given that after that one instance he proceeded to force himself on her in a pretty brutal manner during the early days of their marriage. The eventual growth of love in their relationship is far more believable than that first night.

Anyway, the shitty treatment of women continues throughout the entire series, but that didn't stop them from being my favorite characters in the books.

[thinking-lotus.livejournal.com]

Nobody else gets it either. Well, there are theories that it was done that way to make her character progression more obvious, since in the books there's a lot of internal dialog so you can see her changing, but idk.

You're absolutely correct about the character development too, the only reason I know what's going on is that I already know what's going on.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

For about a week, there were about 3 posts on this a day on my list. (It's still iffy in the book in that, yes, she is still sold [Though, this is why I don't have a problem with any of the aulterous relationships in the Borgias, because the show is like "Dude Lucrezia/Ursula/Sancha were sold by their families for political gain...stuf u if you judge them"], but Drogo in the books seems to make more of an effort to show her respect and make her comfortable and she's all "gosh, I don't know this guy really and this language barrier is SUCH an issue, but this sex thing seems pretty interesting..." as opposed to dragging her out to nowhere and her being petrified with fear. Thought he commenter below is right in that, after that, he does just show up for sex when he feels like it and ignores her otherwise until she's pregnant and then he starts paying attention to and interacting with her more. Which I think is basically the same in the show.)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Well, to be truthful, in the books it all more complicated than "they have romantic candlelit nomad-tent sex", I have recently re-read it to confirm.

The first nihgt? Dany agreed to it (but she was terrified and 15) and we didn't get much deatils after "he pulled her clothes off". but after? It is explicitly described that every night Drogo came in and (the quote) : "Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.
Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night ."

Well, basically in the show they replaced the first night with all those marital rapes that happened after (plus in the book, we don't get to know anything about the first night after "he started taking her clothes off"). One way or another, Dany/Drog has always been very dodgy.

[algelic.livejournal.com]

As the story advances, the treatment of women changes. They become stronger and totally rule over the men.

And it's sad that they changed the wedding night scene... in the book it was sweet and slow (despite the whole marrying a stranger thing and in the show they made it look like rape.

I'm on episode 5 (I think).

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yes, but wading through eps and eps (or pages and pages) in order to get there is not worth it for me.

[lightsjustright.livejournal.com]

I watched about 4 or so episodes after being swayed by the hype but point four was really such a turn off and I was the same with point five that I wasn't very much drawn into the rest to look past it. And I especially hated everything about Dany/Drogo - from the gross rape romance to Drogo being the only leading brown guy who is, of course, part of a barbarian race that will eventually be awesomely led by the pale-skinned Dany. :/ I did read the first book to see if it just translated badly onscreen for me but I didn't fare much better there either. I guess it's just not my thing.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Drogo/Dany is straight out of The Sheik but it's not 1920 any more! Ugh.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

When I was watching the pilot with a friend, we agreed that the only reason HBO didn't work in a weird/kinky/creepy/rapey sex scene with Cat and Ned is that even HBO just couldn't find a way to do that with them, so they settled on cuddling in bed instead

I basically had (and continue to have, though it has improved, despite the continuing obsession with whore and brothels) most of the same issues as you, but from the perspective of having read the books, if several years ago.
Based purely on pilots, I preferred The Borgias (and still do, though I still have 2 episodes to watch) and Games of Thrones is sometimes like that one really gross part of the pilot with Michelotto and the maid (and then the show blessedly never did anything like that again, allowing me to like it) spread throughout the whole episode, if a bit diluted, andthen still showing up in diluted form in subsequent episodes.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yes, in The Borgias, it was one minor scene, here it's a motif. It just makes me wonder about the writer's issues.

[iheartkleenex.livejournal.com]

The thing with these books is that the characters develop a lot through the series. A lot of them women who are not that great become kick-ass characters. All the characters develop actually. Try and stick around for the rest if you can. Episode 7 was amazing!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

But the thing is, if something is well done, it shouldn't take me more than half the season to get into it. I'll keep it up for a few eps because some flisties really like it, but I doubt it will suddenly click.

[iheartkleenex.livejournal.com]

Yes, you're right of course, but I was a fan of the books first before I started the TV show so I am just happy that they kept on track with the plot of the book for most part.

The books are extremely long. There is said to be seven in total and each I imagine will be around 1000 pages or more so definitely it will take more time for certain things to... fall into place.

[ambergold.livejournal.com]

see, points 4 and 5 were why I didn't like the books EITHER. I honestly have NO idea why the Game of Thrones books are so popular, I'm going to chalk it up to the same mysterious crowd which loves the Outlander series for reasons unknown to man. They're well-written, but they're overly long, self-indulgent, and worst of all bleak to the point of enjoying cruelty and misery AND there were no characters I could really root for - they were all dislikable to one extent or another or else given precious little story-time. Also I realized about 2 chapters in that there were no female characters I could identify with (one girl-child excepted and she was given little story-time) - they were all weak or evil or annoying or slutty - and that it was going to stay that way the entire book.

In summary: it wasn't a world I wanted to live in.

So I gave up. And my faith in the taste of the general public (I know the general public has bad taste but I had higher hopes for the fantasy crowd) died a little more.

[filmi-girl.livejournal.com]

YES! I agree with everything you just said.

Why do I want to wade through pages and pages of Important Men doing things just to get to a woman who is more than a sex object.

Raping and wife beating are not character developing traits in my book.

[ambergold.livejournal.com]

and the thing was it just seemed so pointless - I mean I would understand it if one or even two female characters suffered rape or domestic abuse for plot purposes, or even - marginally - if this was set in a historical time period such as Rome in which stuff like that actually did happen all the time - but including so much of it here - so much that it's just an accepted part of the world - makes me thing George R.R. Martin has something wrong with his mind. *shudder*

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

People keep telling me 'it gets better' but the world is full of books and TV shows, why should I wade through 2000 self-important pages or hours and hours of TV before I get even a glimmer of a strong female character or gender/race treatment that doesn't make me tear out my hair?

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh my God, Word word word word.

And yes, another person who loathe Outlander!

[ambergold.livejournal.com]

Oh my God, the Outlander series is such unparalleled (and boring!) rubbish, the mind boggles at its popularity.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Plus, I found it so offensive and creepy. Ugh.

[rectherapyfreak.livejournal.com]

One reason I really love this series is because it doesn't matter how old, young, nice, evil, smart, strong, pretty, ugly, minor, or main a character is. They all have an equal chance of living or dying. I find this factor very refreshing. Most stories are very predictable. The good guy is going to beat the bad guy, get the girl, and a close comrade is mostly likely going to die.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Not a lot of the books I read, but I am not the world's biggest fantasy fan (I like some but I don't read it regularly).

E.g. Simmons' Endymion. I had no idea where it was going and I loved it and it made me think and wasn't fraught with race/gender issues.

[littledelusion.livejournal.com]

I kind of took the whole women issues thing as intentional, because their world isn't meant to be fair to women and as the series progresses you seem female characters rising up and taking the reigns. (I haven't read the books either) From what I've read on wikipedia (because I am a spoiler-loving freak) it looks like the women will become a lot more central.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yes, but wasting hours and hours in hopes of eventually getting there seems pointless to me when there are plenty of stories that treat women as important from the start.

[cleobulle.livejournal.com]

I wonder if the reason I like GOT (the show) so much is because of all the pretty. Because I'm shallow like that. As mentioned above, the series is kind of bleak and it's hard to root for any particular character, even the "good" ones because you never know when Martin might decide to off them.

But I'm addicted to the show and currently re-reading the books. I like that no one is all white or all black. There's the largest scale of gray you'll ever see in a show/book series.

Re-treatment of women...Most of them are actually the ones wearing the pants. Queen Cersei for exemple. On the surface she gets put into her place by her husband but she's as strong as steel and quite the little schemer who'll do anything to get what she wants.

Giving yourself until the end of episode 4 is a good thing . If you're still having doubts after this, there's no way you'll enjoy the rest of the series and it'll be time to abandon this ship :o)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I'll see how it goes. I'll be shocked if I fall for it, but stranger things have happened.

[filmi-girl.livejournal.com]

I must be extremely evil but that child was SO ANNOYING in his precociousness that I was glad when he was tossed out the window.

I just could not get over the gender thing. It's so bad.

Also, I really, really hate the whiney bastard son who has no redeeming qualities.

And the Dave Grohl character, whatever his name is.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Rape is not a character-building device Mr Martin and HBO seem to think it is!

[katranna.livejournal.com]

Hah. A (female) friend of mine quite loves Jaime Lannister.

I am in the same boat as you, having only watched the 1st ep. But from what I hear:

1. Most of the characters will be unlikable. If you need likable characters, this may not be for you. The plot and their interactions will, apparently, become quite fascinating.

2. The source material is not particularly good with women, so I'm not even expecting anything remotely feministy here. It's fantasy written by an old white dude. Not saying there will be no female characters of note, but everyone seems to be written very much from a male lens.

3. Good things don't happen very much to people here, period. It's all bleak and miserable.

4. It ain't great with race either.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I don't mind unlikeable but I want interesting and none of these people are.

I've enjoyed stories with a much greater degree of gender/race problems, but there the story was good enough to distract me, here all I do is think about this stuff.

[thegreatmissjj.livejournal.com]

It took me about 2 episodes to get into it but now I'm totally sucked in. Unlike you, I kept having to ask "Who the fuck are these people? Why don't I know their names? BAD INTRODUCTIONS, SHOW."

I've never read the books. I tried once and got bored. However, I am told by my female fantasy fan friends that the series are worth giving a go. I too, call myself a feminist and generally have problems with "rape as titillation" (why, HBO, why? must you be showing the tits and ass and beaver shots ALL THE FUCKING TIME????), although I have to say I'm completely absorbed by the politicking that goes on. Game of Thrones is less "fantasy" than a political drama, I think.

As for rape in this universe, it takes place in a vaguely Dark Age/medieval-ish setting, so it supposedly has corresponding social more. I actually preferred Dany's wedding night scene in the series than to the books because it seemed more honest than "Oh, I will try and sexually please a woman who's just been sold to me for political gain." Not that the Dany/Drogo storyline isn't problematic (oh god, the race issues and oh god, the Stockholm Syndrome), but I do enjoy seeing Dany's evolution from scared little girl to a woman unafraid to voice her opinions. (I hear she's kind of obnoxious in the books though. The women, they don't fare well under Martin's pen. Although in all fairness, the men aren't all great either.)

Everyone seems to be cast in shades of grey: you find out that characters you thought morally sympathetic are also totally awful, and characters whom you find totally awful have fascinating, compelling reasons for their moral grossness. But then again, I do have a soft spot for the morally disgusting. (Please see: my love of Benjamin Linus, Gaius Baltar, Mrs. Coulter, Melisande Shahrizai, et al.) I ♥ Jamie Lannister, but then again, I'm not sentimental about children, so him throwing Bran out the window didn't bother me. And as you come to see in the Cersei/Jamie relationship, she's really the one who's in control.

Give yourself a few episodes, and if you don't at least adore Tyrion Lannister (the dwarf character), then perhaps the show isn't for you.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

The thing with "Dark Ages" - even back then, not 90% of the women were raped or something (plus, it's a fantasy version - he can do anything he likes there - so I cut him less slack).

Ultimately, I don' mind morally repugnant but they have to be interesting (Baltar was never my favorite character but I was interested in him) and I just don't find any of these people particularly fun.

I'll see though.

[sanaenam.livejournal.com]

Haven't seen this but me love some Sean Bean. Sucky husband but great actor and eye candy.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, adored him in Sharpe.