OK, these thoughts on HBP are much longer and more coherent. I know it’s a few days, but at least I am finally able to write more than “a85usu47647*&%43”
A whole bunch of issues I want to address, but I will start with the most important one. I loved this book! In fact, it is now my favorite of the Harry Potter books, and certainly one of the ones I’ll reread most often (in fact, as soon as I finished, I started another reread, which doesn’t happen very often). Quite unlike OOTP which, though well-written, I’ve read only twice and have little desire to reread in the near future just because of the sheer misery in it.Also, Sirius is not dead.
OK, topics for today are: Snape and Horcruxes.
Snape: the biggest WTF in the book, the one that made my jaw drop was Snape. Not that he was the Half-Blood Prince (though how ironic is it that Harry does so well following Snape’s instructions, defends and likes him. Hmmm). But the fact that he (apparently) was fooling DD all the time as an evil Death Eater and Aked him at the end. Speak about pulling the rug from under you.
But still, something doesn’t add up. I am not a Snape worshipper. The man is unpleasant and pretty unfit to be a teacher (though being shut up in a lab, researching, would probably make him as happy as a clam if his book is any indication). But it makes no sense for him to be Peter Pettigrew Mark II. For one thing, Dumbledore (henceforth abbreviated as DD) is no idiot. He tells Harry during one of their Pensieve sessions that he never trusted Voldemort despite his sorryness and perfect behavior because he’s seen him in an orphanage and knew it was an act. So even Voldy, when he was personable and pitch-perfect couldn’t fool him. But Severus Snape, the unpleasant unpersonable potions genius could? After all, DD knew of him doing much more unpleasant stuff than stealing kids’ posessions and stuffing them in a wardrobe. The proof of his repentance would have to be huge, for DD to buy it. No sob story of “so sorry, they made me do it” would cut it. And considering Snape’s crucial position (for the Order) within the DE, DD would have to be truly sure.
Also, usually, when there is a huge revelation/turn-around, JKR springs it on us at the end (e.g. Mad Eye in GoF) with the explanation to follow. She does not hand it to us in Chapter 2 of the book.
Also, DD does not have hubris. Yet he seems to ignore all the comments Harry makes in HBP about Snape. It can't be merely because he's already made up his mind. Moreover, DD knows the DADA position is cursed and he still gives it to Snape? The real reason for keeping Snape away from it wasn't keeping him from temptation but the curse, it appears. But even if it was temptation, DD who knows of the curse gives it to him when war is raging and he will be most tempted he's ever been? Why?
Then there’s Snape’s strange (if you think of him as evil DE) behavior. He tells Narcissa that he believes that Voldie expects him (Snape) to be the one to kill DD in the end (which leads me to think he already knows he would either have to kill DD or be exposed). And of course if he is such a vile creature, why would he have enough human feeling to promise Narcissa to take care of Draco? And his hands twich when he promises to kill DD if Draco fails. Then Harry hears from Hagrid of an argument between Snape and DD in the woods where Snape is reluctant and angry. Then there is revulsion and hatred on Snape’s face when he AKs DD. Hatred? OK, though bizarre. Even if Snape follows Voldie for real, it is only out of self-interest. He is no Bella with her groupie-like crush. So I can’t see him hating DD. And why revulsion? Dumbledore is not covered in bobotuber pus after all ;). It has to be revulsion for what he is about to do. Then there is DD’s “please, Severus.” Would Dumbledore plead for his life? Unlikely. And of course he doesn’t kill Harry and yells at him to not call him (Snape) a coward and Harry has the odd thought that he is in as much pain as Fang trapped in a burning house. It just doesn’t add up to a consummately evil horror serving at the altar of the Dark Lord. I do think since DD was growing weaker all through the year, he and Snape have devised some kind of a contingency. After all, Snape knew early on Voldie would want him to be the one to get rid of DD. That is what that argument in the woods was about etc etc. Maybe DD would come back as a ghost in 7 to help Harry?
Of course, in the 7th book JKR might have Snape torturing babies and having DE orgies, but I really hope not. It would remove so much complexity from the character and the books. It would make MWPP absolutely right when they bullied Snape and not gits who grew out of their flaws and matured into wonderful people. It would make Snape a living proof of “Harry doesn’t like”=evil and unpleasant=evil. I liked that not all people on the side of good were nice or liked Harry. Yes, Snape is unpleasant and has done some horrible things. But he is a double (or triple) agent. Do you really think they can be nice people and still continue?
I also found his interaction with Bella and Cissy quite interesting. We don’t often see him interact with just other adults (obviously, as Harry is the POV) and the word that came to mind was…capable. Cold and self-assured. I was also surprised by the caring he had towards Narcissa. Not love or anything (though I can just see the new ship spring to forefront of Snape fics), but you don’t expect DEs to have caring of any kind.
Perhaps, I never likes Snape so well as when I thought of him as HBP, scribbling away all over his book, brilliant and fascinated with new spells and proper potions and research. Please, JKR, don’t make him the cardboard evil villain. Please.
Actually, even Bella was humanized. She is evil (and an idiot. Her “if I had sons, I’d be proud to give them all up to LV blah blah,” come on. You are not a groupie), but I can see her as a person now. And of course Narcissa. She loves her son and is scared (and is willing to brave LV’s displeasure) and wants to take care of him. And of course there is Draco but about it later.
And now, a quick comment on Horcruxes. I think another reason there isn’t more than 7 is that I have a feeling that the more you splinter your soul, the weaker each individual piece gets, and the less human you get. E.g. LV is less powerful than if he kept his soul together, and if he splinters it too much, each individual part would not be able to function.
Next up: Harry’s maturity, Draco in 3D, Dumbledore, Weasleys as a family, and couples parallels.
And in conclusion, this little dialogue with my cousin.
She: Sirius should come back from the dead
Me: and marry a Weasley
She: everyone should marry a Weasley
A whole bunch of issues I want to address, but I will start with the most important one. I loved this book! In fact, it is now my favorite of the Harry Potter books, and certainly one of the ones I’ll reread most often (in fact, as soon as I finished, I started another reread, which doesn’t happen very often). Quite unlike OOTP which, though well-written, I’ve read only twice and have little desire to reread in the near future just because of the sheer misery in it.
OK, topics for today are: Snape and Horcruxes.
Snape: the biggest WTF in the book, the one that made my jaw drop was Snape. Not that he was the Half-Blood Prince (though how ironic is it that Harry does so well following Snape’s instructions, defends and likes him. Hmmm). But the fact that he (apparently) was fooling DD all the time as an evil Death Eater and Aked him at the end. Speak about pulling the rug from under you.
But still, something doesn’t add up. I am not a Snape worshipper. The man is unpleasant and pretty unfit to be a teacher (though being shut up in a lab, researching, would probably make him as happy as a clam if his book is any indication). But it makes no sense for him to be Peter Pettigrew Mark II. For one thing, Dumbledore (henceforth abbreviated as DD) is no idiot. He tells Harry during one of their Pensieve sessions that he never trusted Voldemort despite his sorryness and perfect behavior because he’s seen him in an orphanage and knew it was an act. So even Voldy, when he was personable and pitch-perfect couldn’t fool him. But Severus Snape, the unpleasant unpersonable potions genius could? After all, DD knew of him doing much more unpleasant stuff than stealing kids’ posessions and stuffing them in a wardrobe. The proof of his repentance would have to be huge, for DD to buy it. No sob story of “so sorry, they made me do it” would cut it. And considering Snape’s crucial position (for the Order) within the DE, DD would have to be truly sure.
Also, usually, when there is a huge revelation/turn-around, JKR springs it on us at the end (e.g. Mad Eye in GoF) with the explanation to follow. She does not hand it to us in Chapter 2 of the book.
Also, DD does not have hubris. Yet he seems to ignore all the comments Harry makes in HBP about Snape. It can't be merely because he's already made up his mind. Moreover, DD knows the DADA position is cursed and he still gives it to Snape? The real reason for keeping Snape away from it wasn't keeping him from temptation but the curse, it appears. But even if it was temptation, DD who knows of the curse gives it to him when war is raging and he will be most tempted he's ever been? Why?
Then there’s Snape’s strange (if you think of him as evil DE) behavior. He tells Narcissa that he believes that Voldie expects him (Snape) to be the one to kill DD in the end (which leads me to think he already knows he would either have to kill DD or be exposed). And of course if he is such a vile creature, why would he have enough human feeling to promise Narcissa to take care of Draco? And his hands twich when he promises to kill DD if Draco fails. Then Harry hears from Hagrid of an argument between Snape and DD in the woods where Snape is reluctant and angry. Then there is revulsion and hatred on Snape’s face when he AKs DD. Hatred? OK, though bizarre. Even if Snape follows Voldie for real, it is only out of self-interest. He is no Bella with her groupie-like crush. So I can’t see him hating DD. And why revulsion? Dumbledore is not covered in bobotuber pus after all ;). It has to be revulsion for what he is about to do. Then there is DD’s “please, Severus.” Would Dumbledore plead for his life? Unlikely. And of course he doesn’t kill Harry and yells at him to not call him (Snape) a coward and Harry has the odd thought that he is in as much pain as Fang trapped in a burning house. It just doesn’t add up to a consummately evil horror serving at the altar of the Dark Lord. I do think since DD was growing weaker all through the year, he and Snape have devised some kind of a contingency. After all, Snape knew early on Voldie would want him to be the one to get rid of DD. That is what that argument in the woods was about etc etc. Maybe DD would come back as a ghost in 7 to help Harry?
Of course, in the 7th book JKR might have Snape torturing babies and having DE orgies, but I really hope not. It would remove so much complexity from the character and the books. It would make MWPP absolutely right when they bullied Snape and not gits who grew out of their flaws and matured into wonderful people. It would make Snape a living proof of “Harry doesn’t like”=evil and unpleasant=evil. I liked that not all people on the side of good were nice or liked Harry. Yes, Snape is unpleasant and has done some horrible things. But he is a double (or triple) agent. Do you really think they can be nice people and still continue?
I also found his interaction with Bella and Cissy quite interesting. We don’t often see him interact with just other adults (obviously, as Harry is the POV) and the word that came to mind was…capable. Cold and self-assured. I was also surprised by the caring he had towards Narcissa. Not love or anything (though I can just see the new ship spring to forefront of Snape fics), but you don’t expect DEs to have caring of any kind.
Perhaps, I never likes Snape so well as when I thought of him as HBP, scribbling away all over his book, brilliant and fascinated with new spells and proper potions and research. Please, JKR, don’t make him the cardboard evil villain. Please.
Actually, even Bella was humanized. She is evil (and an idiot. Her “if I had sons, I’d be proud to give them all up to LV blah blah,” come on. You are not a groupie), but I can see her as a person now. And of course Narcissa. She loves her son and is scared (and is willing to brave LV’s displeasure) and wants to take care of him. And of course there is Draco but about it later.
And now, a quick comment on Horcruxes. I think another reason there isn’t more than 7 is that I have a feeling that the more you splinter your soul, the weaker each individual piece gets, and the less human you get. E.g. LV is less powerful than if he kept his soul together, and if he splinters it too much, each individual part would not be able to function.
Next up: Harry’s maturity, Draco in 3D, Dumbledore, Weasleys as a family, and couples parallels.
And in conclusion, this little dialogue with my cousin.
She: Sirius should come back from the dead
Me: and marry a Weasley
She: everyone should marry a Weasley
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Date: 2005-07-19 03:50 pm (UTC)I want to reread HBP. Wah!
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Date: 2005-07-19 04:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 03:59 pm (UTC)Oh, good one!
I'm wondering how she's going to fit the hunt for all those horocruxes into a single book, m'self.
In the meantime, have you heard the latest? A bunch of
teenybopperspeople are calling for a letter-writing campaign, with a return of the dustjacket to show their disapproval.no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 04:01 pm (UTC)Maybe they like to hang out together? :)
people are calling for a letter-writing campaign, with a return of the dustjacket to show their disapproval.
Disapproval of what?
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Date: 2005-07-19 04:23 pm (UTC)http://www.livejournal.com/users/m_m_1920/10940.html
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Date: 2005-07-19 04:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 04:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 05:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 05:00 pm (UTC)Heretic! Burn the witch!
ROFL
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Date: 2005-07-19 05:03 pm (UTC)I thought Harry and Ginny's last conversation was plenty romantic enough for me. But I guess she wasn't Hermione :)
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Date: 2005-07-19 05:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 05:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 04:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 05:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 04:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 04:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 05:11 pm (UTC)Snape is the man to keep an eye on in the seventh book. There is much more to his murdering Dumbledore than what Harry saw - I am absolutely sure of it.
Secondly, your cousin is awesome. And it's funny, because when I think of the Weasleys, I think of my own family. I could seriously write you a book about how much I love the Weasleys being a big family but with their different personalities - even Fred and George are two separate characters, with distinct characters. Mr. Weasley is the wizard equivalent of my dad (down to the red hair and freckles) and JKR may have based Mrs. Weasley on my mother. So when I read, "Everyone should marry a Weasley," what I thought was, "Everyone should marry a Driscoll," and I got all twitterpated on the inside because that will be fun in my family (four sons and ten daughters and a large extended Irish family will make for a whole string of entertaining weddings).
Oh man, weddings. A Weasley wedding is going to be a blast. I can't wait for the next book. Wedding! Wedding! Wedding!
As for the H/H shippers protesting the H/G pairing... I'm in the middle of rereading Goblet of Fire (I was trying to get through rereading the whole series before the sixth book came out, but I didn't finish in time) and I just now reread the chapter "The Unexpected Task" where it's time to get dates for the Yule Ball. Ginny's behavior towards Ron and Harry clearly indicates that yes, she still has a crush on Harry, and Harry, being, well, a boy, is pretty much oblivious. In all seriousness, the way it's written, the crush is obvious to anyone who can read the signs, even if it's not spelled out word for word in the text. Once I get through OotP, I'm sure I'll continue thinking this. The pairing is hinted at and shown in more ways than this (I distinctly remember Ginny snatching the snitch from right under Cho Chang's nose during a Quidditch match - foreshadowing, much?) but I still understand the surprise at them finally getting together (even if I don't understand the outrage).
Finally, one of my friends thinks that Harry is the last Horcrux. Your thoughts? (I would get into mine, but I want to see yours first.)
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Date: 2005-07-19 05:17 pm (UTC)If he did it before he killed Harry, why would he try to kill his own Horcrux then (and when would he implant it?) And afterwards, I doubt he had the means. Plus, even with a snake isn't a bit risky as it has its own intelligence. But a human?
Plus, Harry would have to die then, and after seeing him so happy with Ginny, I couldn't bear it. He should so marry her and have 10 children with her, all redheads with green eyes, and he can name tow for his parents, and one for Sirius, and one for DD. The boy never had a family, and the few people he loved were taken away. But Ginny comes with a huge loving ready made family and this would be perfect.
I wonder what kind of father Harry woud make, as he has had no experience with being in a normal family.
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Date: 2005-07-19 05:31 pm (UTC)My friend says that he thinks Voldemort accidentally made Harry a Horcrux when he tried to kill him and the magic backfired. He says that the reason why Harry has some of Voldemort's powers are because they are, in essence, partly the same person. He mentioned some sort of symbolism, but that was the part of the conversation when my brain shifted from "literary critic" to "fangirl" and I started saying things like THEY WILL ALL GROW UP AND HAVE LOTS OF BABIES because that's how mature I am over AIM.
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Date: 2005-07-19 05:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 06:43 pm (UTC)You should differentiate between us two cousins
Date: 2005-07-19 06:42 pm (UTC)And yeah, everyone thinks that Harry is one of the horcruxes. But wouldn't he have to die then? Somehow I doubt that JKR will do that. Harry has to live and marry Ginny because it'll complete the arc of his parents. He's the boy who lived after all, right? That's how it has to be--his parents died and didn't quite finish the job, but he does, and he gets to live, yet another green-eyed, dark-haired Potter with a red-headed wife.
Re: You should differentiate between us two cousins
Date: 2005-07-19 06:51 pm (UTC)While I still read the books as demonstrating a very Western philosophy reflected in Christian thought and history, after HBP I don't think that JKR will carry the symbolism of the 'chosen one' quite as far as I originally thought. Translation: I don't think Harry will have to die anymore. These days I do think that Harry will have to make sacrifices to conquer the Dark Lord (for example, he sacrificed his relationship with Ginny) and he will ultimately be the one to kill old Voldie, but I also think that Ron, Hermione, Neville, and especially Ginny are going to be very important in helping Harry.
Also, not to nitpick or anything, but I don't think James Potter had green eyes. I would have to double check though.
Re: You should differentiate between us two cousins
Date: 2005-07-19 07:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 07:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 08:53 pm (UTC)I have a theory about RAB, as well, but I seem to not be the only one...Tell me if you haven't heard it yet. ;)
I also loved this book. I'm disappointed that so many people are acting shallow and ignorant and not appreciating it's beautiful, and often subtle, writing and focusing on the unimportant things. JKR passes quite a few wonderful pieces of information/lessons on through this book, but you have to be deep enough to see and love them. (Rather like the SW prequels, I think. You just can't judge this stuff on face value.) HBP is my second favorite now, following the closest to my heart (even though I'm not sure why), POA.
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Date: 2005-07-19 09:22 pm (UTC)Re: Snape.
am rereading HBP and this phrase sprung out at me:
This is when Harry was making DD drink:
Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth. (p. 571, US edition). (emphasis mine)
Here is Snape performing the AK:
Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face. (p. 595, US edition). (emphasis mine).
I was just struck by JKR's choice of words. There's hatred and revulsion in Harry(exactly what is on Snape's face) but it's because Harry is hurting someone he cares for on his orders. I was struck by the potential parallel with Snape.
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Date: 2005-07-19 09:27 pm (UTC)About the note from R.A.B. ~ I think R.A.B. is Regulus Black, Sirius' brother. We know he was a Death-Eater, and whoever left that note in the locket had to have been one of Voldemort's circle, and we also know that he was killed, and it would make sense for JK to show that Regulus was not as purely evil as originally conjectured, just as Sirius wasn't (of course, Sirius wasn't evil at all). And of course, as Snape may not be. The discussion about Regulus in OOTP (pg. 112, US version) is this (I condensed it just a little):
"He was younger than me," said Sirius, "and a much better son, as I was constantly reminded."
"But he died," said Harry.
"Yeah," said Sirius, "Stupid idiot...he joined the Death Eaters."
"You're kidding!"
"Come on, Harry, haven't you seen enough of this house to tell what kind of wizards my family were?" said Sirius testily....."I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first."
"Was he killed by an Auror?" asked Harry tentatively.
"Oh no," said Sirius, "No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely, I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death."
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Regulus got in far enough to somehow discover Voldemort's secret, and in realizing how truly evil and sick the Dark Lord is, he attempted to destroy one of the Horcruxes (in this case, the locket) before his death. However, I don't think he managed to destroy it. Either he couldn't figure how, or he was killed first. Whatever happened, I think the locket ended up in Grimmauld Place. Remember when they're cleaning out the house and finding various objects? OOTP (pg. 116): ..."There was a musical box that emitted a faintly sinister, twinkling tune when wound, and they all found themselves becoming curiously weak and sleepy until Ginny had the sense to slam the lid shut; also a heavy locket none of them could open..."
A heavy locket none of them could open. I would say it's far-fetched, but I doubt it. I think that locket is the missing Horcrux. Regulus put in the house figuring it would be safe. Remember, Number 12 Grimmauld Place has all sorts of enchantments on it, not to mention the fact that it's Unplottable, so if you wanted something hidden, that would seem a secure place. The question is this: Did the locket remain in the house, as the property and everything within it now belongs to Harry, or did something happen to it? Kreacher could have saved it in his rummaging through the trash, not realzing what it was, or...There's always the possibility that Mundungus has already stolen in it, since he was nicking anything of value that he could find. I tend to suspect, though, that somehow that locket still resides in the Black's house. The house which now is Harry's. Just a thought. :)
I love discussing things like this. *shines with geekiness*
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Date: 2005-07-19 09:31 pm (UTC)I'd love to think that the horrible Mrs. Black lost both her sons to the Good Side.
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Date: 2005-07-19 09:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:35 pm (UTC)And yes, it would be great to know Sirius was not a "freak."
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Date: 2005-07-19 09:37 pm (UTC)Yes, it would be nice to find that out.
Of course, Sirius isn't dead.;)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:38 pm (UTC)Because he is recuperating with me. Yes, it would be nice.no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 09:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 11:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 11:06 pm (UTC)Bella's always been one of my favourite characters. But she's still relatively two dimensional, even with all the interesting interaction that went down in this book. I want more of an explanation for her blind allegience to LV. Azkaban scrambling her brains takes into account her present stubborn support, but why did she join originally?
I'ma write a post on Narcissa later.
Sounds like a conversation I'd have with
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Date: 2005-07-19 11:12 pm (UTC)yup yup yup
Date: 2005-07-20 12:53 pm (UTC)just seems too cruel, especially after the fact that the horcruxes harry and DD got is fake... DD weakened himself for nothin, efforts wasted, an empty death... *sniff
i dont know if snape loved lily though, i think he called her a mudblood at some stage
and ps, did anyone else find the reaction to DD's death from others in the Order a bit.. unemotional? they all seem to take it pretty alright considering they've just lost someone that was their mentor, and the wisest, the most powerful, basically the BEST wizard there is? somehow their reaction wasnt strong enough for me...
ps, hope you dont mind me commenting..
Re: yup yup yup
Date: 2005-07-20 01:40 pm (UTC)So it does make sense.
And of course I don't mind you commenting :)