Buh-bye, Lee Adama, it's been fun

[dangermousie]

I have a confession. While I knew everything that happened in season 3's Battlestar Galactica final ep, and saw some of it before, I have never watched it in its entirety, until yesterday.

Permit me to rant.

Lee! WTF! Usually I like Adama Jr, but after his speech at Baltar's trial I wanted to smack him across the face, to maybe get some sense in.

I have no objection to his deciding he feels like defending Baltar. But that speech at the stand? That grand speech that gets Baltar acquitted?

What?

WHAT?

It is so incredibly nonsensical it makes my head hurt.

Under either of only two possible scenarios, Baltar should die. If there is a rule of law, then under that law, Baltar is definitely guilty under the testimony (what with Gaeta's perjury). Thus? Dead Baltar.

If Lee is correct and they switched to mob rule, then guess what? Under mob rule, it's OK to airlock him because he isn't liked. Thus, dead Baltar.

It's not as if Baltar would be acquitted if they followed the law! Lee's whole berserk point is that they should abandon the law because they have done 'variances' from it in the past, and thus not to convict Baltar despire the evidence.* But yet (according to Lee) they shouldn't have a mob rule, either.

Well, face it, bub, it's either one or the other.

The only out for Baltar, and in fact what Lee seems to be arguing, is that nobody should be punished for any crime ever, because in the past some crimes got overlooked. Which leads to rather psychotic anarchy, doesn't it? Because law is out, and violent mob rule is also out, only face it, with no law and no punishment for any crime, there will be plenty of murder around, not just Baltar's.

Because if Baltar can't be punished for what he's supposed to have done, by testimony, than nobody can be. For anything.

Ugh.

I wish I hadn't seen this ep.

I have finally, after three seasons, have come to dislike Lee Adama.

* His whole stupid point is that they overlook rules for people they like, so it's unfair not to overlook rules for a person they don't like! Huh? The whole point of not-a-legal-system that he seems to say exists is to pick and chose subjectively who you like and don't. OTOH, if he is arguing for impartiality (not that he is), Baltar hangs on weight of evidence. He can't shame them for being a mob and yet want them not to enforce the law!

Does he have no brain or did it get smashed in one of the viper crashes?

Comments

[cujoy.livejournal.com]

The only out for Baltar, and in fact what Lee seems to be arguing, is that nobody should be punished for any crime ever, because in the past some crimes got overlooked. Which leads to rather psychotic anarchy, doesn't it? Because law is out, and violent mob rule is also out, only face it, with no law and no punishment for any crime, there will be plenty of murder around, not just Baltar's."
Because if Baltar can't be punished for what he's supposed to have done, by testimony, than nobody can be. For anything.

Yes. Thank you. This speech was the most ridiculous thing ever. Basically, Lee is calling Baltar's crimes into moral equivalency with things such as Tyrol and Helo killing a man accidentally to protect Sharon from being raped. Or with himself destroying the Olympic Carrier under the lawful orders of the President and Commander. They are so very not the same thing, no matter how much guilt Lee feels over it.

So, does Tigh's drunkeness really negate the evidence of his lost eye? Does Laura taking kamalla really effect her testimony? (And Lee was such a rat over that too. Grrrr)

Let's just say that when I re-watch Crossroads II, it's for the FF scenes. ;)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

So, does Tigh's drunkeness really negate the evidence of his lost eye? Does Laura taking kamalla really effect her testimony? (And Lee was such a rat over that too. Grrrr)

Exactly.

And ohhhhh, the burning hate I felt when he pressured Roslin? I haven't felt that against a character for a while :)

Of course, they had to find some convoluted way to keep Baltar alive because TPTB like the character, but really...

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

I *think* what Lee was saying was that

1. Yes, he collaborated, let's face it.

2. Tons of people collaborated, and they all got let off the hook, because we realized they had no choice.

3. Like everyone else, Baltar had no choice, even if what Gaeta says is true. If he hadn't given power to the Cylons everyone would be dead.

4. We're holding him to a different standard because we don't like him and we need to blame someone, like a mob would.

But it took me a long time to get past all Ron's convoluted attempts to philosophize and tie in everything that's happened on the show ever. My initial reaction was basically the same as yours. (And hey, maybe I'm making this up to make myself feel better.)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

If that is what he is saying, i.e. Baltar should be judged the way other collaborators, and it's either all or none, that makes sense. The other stuff just annoyed me and got in the way...

[frolicndetour.livejournal.com]

Oh, me too. And I was so irritated. (DON'T listen to the podcast.) Basically, i think there was a good point in there that got buried under Ron's political and moral ideas. Same with the end of Razor: Gang-rape? Civilian massacres? Who cares! We've all had our moments! Oy. And it got all convoluted. My fanwank is that Lee knew the irrational guilt aspect rather than the logical one was the best way to get his father onboard. (See: Hero) :D

I really enjoy your rants, btw!

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

I think his point was that they're NOT trying to punish Baltar for anything he did (because on New Caprica he didn't do anything that ANY of them wouldn't have done - and of course no one knows that he really did betray the human race, just not at THAT point). Moreover, many of them did far worse things than Baltar did on New Caprica - after all, the Cylons WERE literally holding a gun to his head at most points during that arc - whereas Adama chose to stage a military coup, Tigh declared martial law, Lee committed mutiny and shot down a civilian vessel and no one was holding a gun to their heads. Lee's saying that they're punishing Baltar and Baltar alone because they need/want a scapegoat and Baltar's not a very likeable person. (After all, everyone else who collaborated with the Cylons - and didn't get tossed out of an airlock by vigilantes - got a blanket pardon, after all. It's like if there was a Truth and Reconciliation commission for every single person except one.)

Heh! That's actually something that completely made me love Lee more than ever, so I see that much as with the great Helo/Sharon romance, we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on this particular front!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

If that is what he was saying, I have no problem with it, but it didn't come across to me that way...I mean, aside from my issue with how I saw his duality argument, comparing Baltar's actions with Chief accidentally killing a wannabe rapist or Lee firing on a hostile ship under orders to Baltar?

And yes, arguably every collaborator is guilty. That is why they haven't been acquitted but pardoned. Pardons are by definition discretionary. Baltar should be convicted under law. And then it's up to Roslin whether to pardon or not. He can complain about her bias in not granting him a pardon (though once again, discretionary) but it is no business of the court.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

it is no business of the court.

Right, but isn't it the business of the court to ensure that Baltar's trial isn't biased? It wasn't Lee who decided to hold the trial, after all, it was Roslin - and she basically wanted a show trial, because clearly, no one was expecting that there would be any fairness in the trial at all. After all, Adama had pretty much already decided the case.

So I don't think the appropriate analogy to Baltar's trial is a court trial in the US for some specific crime, but more of a Soviet show trial where the outcome is known from the get-go. Now, this being BSG, it's complicated by the fact that Baltar IS guilty, just not of the thing that he's being tried FOR and that ultimately, they do have a civil society in which some people are uncomfortable with the idea of Baltar as scapegoat.

Again, I don't think we're going to agree on this one, but I figured I'd throw in my two cents anyway :P

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh, what you are saying makes total sense. And I am actually very glad we are having this discussion because it's making me get to the point where, even if I don't agree with Apollo, I can see where he is coming from and don't think he is being utterly illogical.

I still think the speech could/should have been written better because I have nowhere near the same degree of instinctive objection to the point you are making at all (or what prolix-allie said upthread), and I didn't get any of it from the speech.