BSG shipper confusion...

[dangermousie]

Oh, Battlestar Galactica why do you confuse me so?

I mean with the shipping :P

You have made me a conflicted multi-shipper and that never happened before.

True, my number one ship (by miles) on BSG is Helo/Sharon (or I guess Helo/Athena now :P) and I never shipped either one of them with other people just because I can't see that. Sharon betrayed her species for Helo, and is the only Cylon who definitely learned to love and overcame her programming entirely so far and Helo? He's been in love with Sharon since the mini and certainly went through 17 kinds of hell to keep her.

But. But. I want to talk about Pilots! now. A.k.a Kara and Lee and the whole thing with Dee and Anders.



See, things were so simple in S1. I shipped Lee and Kara. The end. Since their first interaction in the mini, before we even met Caprica Sharon, before we even knew Helo would survive past the miniseries and not get nuked into oblivion. What was not to love? Two tough, strong, complicated pilots who were best friends and had chemistry leaking out of their ears? The end of S1 left me a rabid shipper: what with Kara calling Lee's name while having sex with someone else and Lee going on a psycho jealous fit.

And then we got season 2. And Kara met one Samuel T. Anders down on Caprica. That episode, 'The Farm' was not one of my favorites. The main plot seemed a bit odd and I was annoyed at the mere thought of Anders, or as some people referred to him 'Lee-lite.' Now, the fact that Kara and Anders hooked up didn't surprise me. The girl always had a healthy libido and Anders was quite an attractive man and just Kara's type: good-looking, athletic, strong and a leader of a doomed rebel group. Perfect, in fact. But the whole implication that what she felt was more than a temporary hook-up, that she gave her dogtags to him, and promised to return made me somewhat grumpy.

And I was still a very rabid Kara/Lee shipper. How could I not be with things like Lee kissing her when he sees her alive again? K-I-S-S-I-N-G, people. And their friendship? And the bonding? And the hot hot making out of 'The Scar?'

But of course, 'The Scar' made the confused shipper in me surface. Because the make-out was hot but it was clear that while Lee wanted emotional involvement, Kara was *gasp* freaking out about Anders. AND wanting Lee at the same time. This is where I began to be as mercurial as my favorite female character on the show. At the time, I still wanted Kara/Lee but I began to think that maybe it wasn't going to work out. Kara was too divided, too unready for anything with Lee, though ready for something with Anders.

And then we got the two parter season 2 finale and my inner shipper went AWOL. Because OMG. Anders was back. And he was rather cool. And Anders and Kara were adorable. And then Kara was a bitch to Lee. And then...season ended.

When the season ended, I was sort of undivided. I lost a lot of interest in Kara/Lee because they didn't seem to be able to work out. I like my ships dysfunctional but with some chance of success. And I liked Anders. A lot. And Lee seemed to have settled in with Dee. But I didn't really have new strong ships among those characters.

And then we got season 3. And somehow I became a rabid Anders/Kara shipper. Maybe because I discovered that Anders was made of awesome and won't back down to Kara or anyone but is not idiotic either. Or maybe it was the scene where he found her in detention and it was a mix of freaking out (whether she was hurt) and joy and love. Or maybe it was the totally heart-breaking scene where she told him she can't be with him because she is too damaged AND THEN KISSED HIM. As I said, I like my OTPs fubar.

So now, I am quite strongly Kara/Anders, right? Right. How about poor Lee? Well, I found Lee and Dee rather dull to watch together (I didn't dislike them but they didn't hold my interest) but then we got that scene where Lee told her he was proud to have her as his wife and I went AWWWW. I am easy, I guess.

So great, right. Everything resolved, right?

Except apparently not. Because reading of the Kara/Lee centric nature of the upcoming episode made me SQUEE so loudly that the paint is still peeling. But now is the crux of my dilemma. I love and want Kara and Anders together. But that would mean depriving self of lovely lovely Kara/Lee. But if we get Kara/Lee, I will be upset about not having Kara/Anders.

Am confused.

And threesome is unlikely on the show.

What to do what to do what to do?

In a way, this is sort of similar to my Roslin/Adama/Zarek thing. I don't ship any of them seriously, but Adama and Roslin are totally like this old married couple you adore yet Zarek is the no good neighbor that you totally want to get together with Roslin :P

And we are not going to start on the whole 'I really liked Boomer and the Chief together but now I think Cally and the Chief are a great married couple. even though Cally is the one who shot Boomer way back.'

Show, quit messing with my head :P

Comments

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

Kara/Anders, baby. Because Lee doesn't respect her and isn't healthy for her (though she may not be healthy for anyone right now), and Sam just loves her, not some ideal she should be (which is also Lee's problem).

Also, there are too few of us.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I agree that Kara/Lee aren't healthy for each other. Could have potentially been if they met pre-Zak, pre-everything, though I think with her history of being abused as a child, any relationship Kara would have would be rocky.

I don't know how spoiled you are so I'll be really general but if what I read about the upcoming ep is correct, it will both reaffirm my K/L shipper tendencies and at the same time reaffirm my belief that those two are certainly too frakked up together to be workable, at least the way they are now.

Kara/Anders? Not anywhere near as frakked up. I mean, Kara is in a horrible headspace regardless of who she'd be with, but Anders is refreshingly not frakked up in 20 different ways (he is interesting, very interesting, but not screwed up, IMO). And he loves her and won't cave in to her too much

Neither will Lee of course, but it's a separate discussion. Though now that I think about it...not so much. Oddly, I can see Lee letting her use him (in whatever fashion. I don't mean in a sexual one :P) much easier than Anders who was able (quite rightly) to walk away, even though there is no doubt he loves her.

I don't know whether Anders loves the real her versus the ideal. He must have gotten to know her quite well over the missing year, but I think Kara kept the 'ugly' parts of herself locked away with him. One of the biggest things with Anders for her was that she could start clean, IMO. And of course, the problem is that whatever she was before Leoben, she is different now, much much more screwed up. In a way, I think Lee knows her better just because he probably has seen first hand all the ugliest, messed up, screwed-up parts of her and knows things like Zak etc (though I have the feeling neither he nor Adama nor anyone outside Leoben know about the abuse).

I wonder if Anders will continue to stick in his love of Kara or whether he will (justifiably) finally give up. In fact, I think it's a sign of his mental health if he can do that once he decides it's unfixable (though I hope that won't happen). I think part of the reason Kara and Lee are so dysfunctional is that neither Lee nor Kara can completely let go no matter what. I am not even necessarily talking romantically there, though I think it plays into that. I mean their various relationships with each other: potential lovers, quasi-siblings, almost in-laws, best friends, worst friends, fellow pilots) are too tangled up. It makes for a cool story but I don't think it's healthy.

So, the point of this long ramble? I am confuuuuuuused :P

[hope-fuleigh.livejournal.com]

Pardon my hopping in to add my two cents, but...

One of the biggest things with Anders for her was that she could start clean, IMO. And of course, the problem is that whatever she was before Leoben, she is different now, much much more screwed up. In a way, I think Lee knows her better just because he probably has seen first hand all the ugliest, messed up, screwed-up parts of her and knows things like Zak etc (though I have the feeling neither he nor Adama nor anyone outside Leoben know about the abuse).

I think this is the fundamental thing about Kara when it comes to Lee... Because Lee has a pretty good sense of how messed up she is, and he still cares for her, despite it all. That's why everything melts down in 'Scar' when it became fairly clear that he was emotionally into the making out and she can't handle the thought that he knows who she is, what she's about, and still cares about her and wants her. With all the flaws.. and that scares the crap out of her.

Which is why, even though I think Anders is awesome, I still love (and hope for) my pilots.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

she can't handle the thought that he knows who she is, what she's about, and still cares about her and wants her. With all the flaws.. and that scares the crap out of her

Exactly. And in a way, that is why she pushed Anders away in 'Collaborators.' Because he isn't safe any more either. He's committed the cardinal sin, followed in Lee's footsteps: he's seen her broken, messed-up and he still wants her, still loves her.

Kara cannot handle when someone percieves her 'ugliness' and still finds her worthy of care (probably a lovely legacy of her childhood). So she pushes them away before they leave her because she isn't shiny perfect as they thought initially. And also because if they don't know she is a screw-up, she doesn't have to confront it every day in their eyes (at least that is how it plays to her though I am sure not to Lee or Anders or whoever).

In a way, by believing she is a screw-up and she deserves bad things, it's giving her an illusory measure of control over circumstances of her life. If she is worthy of love despite the mess she is, than it means she didn't deserve all the bad stuff that happened to her, and that means there is no control for her (does that make sense? I am articulating something I am not sure how to put into words) and it forces her to confront the injustice of what happened to her. Kara hates feeling a victim.

[hope-fuleigh.livejournal.com]

That makes perfect sense, and I've never thought of it that way. But it certainly seems to fit with Kara and a lot of her actions, especially as control is such an issue in other aspects of her character.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

This is true. Sam, I don't think, ever really saw Kare the Fuck-Up, that we know of. She projected a different person to him. But he still believes in her. And I'm clinging to that, despite knowing that I'll be rather disappointed after tomorrow. (I think I should stop now, I'm feeling the batshit lurking in my head and I'm very frustrated)

Also. Domino/Nate for the truly dysfunctional win, baby. (He manipulated everyone and everything just to get her back.)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Nothing wrong with batshit. At least not in my LJ :P

I get the sense that Kara, being Kara, has feelings for both Lee and Anders (or at least had feelings for Lee prior to the lost year as I have no idea what state she is in now). And honestly, if she'd only want it, Anders loves her and she loves him but she is too screwed up, too afraid to open up to anyone. I think it's precisely because he believes in her, loves her despite her (many) flaws that she pushes him away. I blabbed about it at length in my reply to hope_fuleigh upthread, but she can't handle being truly loved for herself as opposed to the image.

She pushes Anders away because he loves her too much and he loves the screw-up and he knows she is a screw-up. In a way, it's the strength of his feelings and his importance to her that dooms him (for now). Kara can handle hurting strangers. She cannot bear the anticipation of disappoiting the ones really close to her.

P.S.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Who are Nate and Domino?

Re: P.S.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

No, really. You don't want batshit.

Anyway. Nate and Dom. *ponders*

*deep breath*

He was brought up in the future to be the savior/leader in the war against an evil regime. Along the way, his wife and son were killed and he ended up going back in time to try to stop the war before it begins by killing Apocalypse. It's his SOLE mission in life.

While in the past, he meets Domino and while she's way too young for him (so he thinks), they end up in an on-again, off-again relationship that spans something like twenty years.

Domino, for her part, was a government experiment, spent her childhood in a coma and has committment issues. She was once married to a man and then faked her own death because she couldn't stay with him anymore.

Recently, her lack of belief in him has made him cry and break a desk. And then he set about manipulating events so that she'd end back up with him. And there was kissing.

[morwen_peredhil]

Kara/Leoben. She only kills him because she loves him.

800 TIMES MORE DELICIOUSLY DYSFUNCTIONAL THAN KARA/LEE!

Sigh.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

True. How could I forget. And talking about a man who truly understands her! :P

800 TIMES MORE DELICIOUSLY DYSFUNCTIONAL THAN KARA/LEE!

LOL.

I have to confess Kara/Leoben scenes were the creepy, awesome highlight of the first two S3 eps.

[morwen_peredhil]

They truly were awesome in their creepiness. And their last scene together, with the kissing and stabbing! OMG. I enjoyed that entirely too much.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Kara/Leoben! For the win in the Dysfunctional OTP sweepstakes!

I think the scene where she stabs Leoben and then calmly picks up the knife and daintily cuts her meat into small pieces while her hands are still bloody is my favorite scene on all of BSG.

Of course, that would also indicate that the woman is clearly not ready for any relationship, I think.

Except with ammo.

[morwen_peredhil]

Hmm. BSG/Alias crossover: Kara/Sark!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Never watched Alias but am I correct in assuming he's the 'bad guy?'

Oh, how about Kara/Aeryn in a Farscape cross-over. Not in a romantic sense, but I'd love to see the interaction.

[morwen_peredhil]

Sark is a bad guy, yes. He and Kara would be a very dangerous, very blond, very hot combination. Gah!

[ancarett]

Zarek is the no good neighbor that you totally want to get together with Roslin

I understand you completely, here!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I know. It's so bad. I feel like I am trying to bust a happy dictatorship family but I can't help it. Zarek and Roslin have all that chemistry and the banter as they were about to be executed, sold me.

I vote BSG has a giant general love-in.

[ancarett]

Hot!!!!!

[life-on-queen.livejournal.com]

I know exactly how you feel.

I think for Kara, Lee is the one she can't afford to lose, which is why she pulls away when it gets too serious. Lee for all his own issues, knows the difference between Kara and Starbuck, which I don't think Anders really does. What freaks Kara out about Lee is that Lee knows what a complete fuck up Kara is, knows that Kara got Zak killed and lied about it, probably knows a whole bunch of other dirty stuff from her past AND LOVES HER ANYWAY. And that scares the shit out of her for a couple of reasons - one because of the Lee/Adama/Zak connection, Kara needs Lee, needs him more as a friend than as a lover and if they got together and it didn't work out, she'd lose that part of herself. Two, I'm betting Kara's mom wasn't just physically abusive, I'm betting it was the verbal abuse that scars Kara inside where no one else can see. Once you've been convinced you're worthless, once you've lost that shiny glow inside you that is your own sense of worth, it's hard to believe anyone would want you - especially when they know alll the shit you've pulled. Zak was probably Kara's big gamble, that she could trust someone to love her, warts and all, as the expression goes, and he dies on her.

Anders, OTOH, thinks she's some kind of hero. He doesn't know her history, doesn't know about Zak or the time she got drunk and frakked some major or her mothere or her career of drunk and disorderly - he just sees the girl who saved him from hell. And it looks like when things got to real with Lee, Kara ran straight to the guy who believes she's the golden girl, and started this fantasy life down on New Caprica with him. As much as I like Kara and Anders, I don't think the big guy has a chance because, to quote TWoP, he thought he was marrying the "fun kind of crazy" and I don't think his marriage can withstand the strain of Kara's incarceration by Leoben - to get past that, Anders will need to learn about Kara's past, all the grim and painful details and then the weight of his pity will snap their bond in two.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, Kara cannot tolerate being pitied and the one thing Lee Adama's never done is pity her - for all that he knows who she is and what she's gone through and still loves her, he also doesn't let her get away with shit because of it. Fundamentally, I think that means they'll eventually sort out their shit and end up together.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Word on Kara and her fears. I agree, I don't think Anders knows about all the 'bad' broken parts of her. Kara never shares that stuff. It took the Apocalypse for her to confess about Zak to Lee and she never told Adama and if he didn't find out, she never would have told. And I get the sense no one knows about the abuse and short of Lee or Adama or Anders getting x-rays on her fingers and then digging, she will never ever tell them. Heck, she won't tell them if they ask point blank.

Interestingly, she can handle friendship with Lee. She just can't handle anything more. With friendship, there is still enough room to save herself. She can handle friendship. (Interestingly, about the most normal relationship we see her have is with Helo, who seems like a good buddy but without the complications of the whole relationship with Lee because she is not anywhere near as emotionally invested).

And the couple of years on the battlestar probably didn't do anything to allay Kara's issues. She had that time with Leoben during interrogation. She had the lovely time on the farm etc etc. And he still loves her after all that. After he knows about the thing with his brother. After seeing her drink and brawl and hook-up and self-destruct. After she shot him (I remember how she was freaking out). You are right, it scares her.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

You know, I *still* think that when a show manages to make me conflicted like that, it is the ultimate compliment to the show in questions. I means that they are good enough to screw with your head.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

True. To compare it Veronica Mars (I don't want to keep doing it but I don't watch that much TV and something like Farscape is an entirely different kettle of fish as there were never any love intrests for OTP other than each other, and it was their internal mess that kept them apart), here I can see the girl with either of the guys, or even more realistically with neither. It's not as if there is OTP and a stumbling block which is there just to annoy you because you know he will just delay the 'proper' ending.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I was totally confused in a big way when Anders let Kara go "just like that". She is his wife of 2 (?) years, they meet after she was in the Cylon prison, then she goes crazily upset on him (and clearly, this all is just post-traumatic shock and she NEEDS his help even if doesn't think so herself) and he what? Gives her the dog-tags and just walks away? I am very confused as how big his love is or did he just wait for an excuse to do so. This is so typical of recent BSG - things are just so psychologically unexplainable IMHO.

I imagine everytime I get crazily upset about something (and I am prone to get upset) my husband gives me his wedding ring back? Just doesn't fit into the marriage paradigm for me.

But EEEEEEE! It is not "love Contract" icon by any chance? I have started watching it.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yup, it's LC icon.

Kara and Anders have been married for a year at most, I think. It's not two years from the time of when she rescued him, actually. But Kara wasn't just being upset/hissy-fitting. She told him to stay away from her or she will claw his eyes out. And that she can't be with anyone right now. And she clearly meant it. What can Anders do? He is not a psycho stalker. (Not to mention that her behavior wasn't just a fight-with-people thing, she was incredibly out of control). Should he have begged her? I don't think any guy Kara is likely to fall for is the begging type. I don't know, it's hard to explain, it makes sense to me. Would I and my husband do the same? No, but we are not at all like Kara and Anders and in a different situation.

[(Anonymous)]

Should he have begged her? I don't think any guy Kara is likely to fall for is the begging type

I don't say he had to beg, but leaving your wife (whom he presumably loves to death) in a middle of her psychological difficulties is just not explainable, IMHO. They could stop sleeping together, give each other space for a while, ect. He didn't have to talk, just to be there for her.

It is either he loves her and he is a type of person he is (resistance leader who didn't leave his people on Caprica, for one thing) and "for better and for worse, in sickness and in health" , or another option is that he one of two - dosn't love her or a weakish person who leaves his own easily.

And another thing I am not sure about - I didn't notice Kara to be much different from the nomal out-of-controlness she is constantly in. You remember towards the end of the last season- she was much more out of control there. Sometimes I think this means she really does like Leoben in perverse kind of way.

Sorry

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

This is me out of login. I apologise.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I didn't notice Kara to be much different from the nomal out-of-controlness she is constantly in.

Really? I thought she went completely insane. Not just a bit of boozing and dangerous flying. She became Madame Defarges from Tale of Two Cities and joined a secet execution squad/tribunal (or near) and had a lot of scary fun. She and Tigh were clearly falling apart in a much more public way than Scar.

dosn't love her or a weakish person who leaves his own easily.

he loves her. But what can he do? It's a different thing on Caprica. He doesn't leave his fighters because he wants to fight and stay with them and not leave them to die on their own. Kara? Is in no danger of dying (no more than any fighter pilot). She doesn't need Anders or anyone for anything but emotional care (unlike his subordinates for whom he is the leader). And she just flat out explained she doesn't want that support and in fact it's making her feel worse. I am not articulating it very well, but IMO the situation with his fighters and Kara is entirely different.

She told him to walk away in no uncertain terms and he did. That just doesn't bother me. She clearly didn't want a little break. She wanted to break it off entirely, at least for now. I didn't get the sense that he closed the door on her. But he was going to give her space. If she wants him and comes and finds him, they can sort their stuff out but I rather liked it that he didn't hang around when she told him to leave.

But this is all very subjective and I don't think I can convince you orvice versa :) I think ultimately the scenario either makes emotional sense or doesn't and then one finds reasons to explain why it does but it's an instinctive thing :)

P.S. If someone who'se been more and more out of control and shrinking from my touch also told me what Kara told Anders, I'd walk out. I think he is also mad and he has reason to be.

[bodea.livejournal.com]

Lols! Um, yeh, you are one confused shipper. I am behind on BSG (still in the middle of season 2), but I've never been a Kara/Lee shipper. Like you, there can be no one else for Boomer/Sharon/slash whoever, but Helo and vice versa. I haven't actually gotten to the point where I should be shipping Dee and Lee, but I am, already. Why? Spoilers and I'm a huge fan of Kandyse McClure and while I love Kara, I'm not into her with Lee. Now, I must catch up on my BSG.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

What is this the icon of? I like it.

I am not shipping Lee and Dee because while I adore Lee and like Dee, their scenes never felt charged in an interesting way for me. They are nice together I suppose but I never have a 'hook' that makes me interested. I can buy that they satisfy each other and are functional together but my attention is never truly engaged. I guess I don't see the fun edginess that I see in Kara/Anders (to use the Lee/Dee counterpart) or Roslin/Adama or Kara/Lee themselves.

Of course, Helo and Sharon don't have that either but are unabashedly in love but they have this intensity to it, not to mention utterly star-crossed vibe that gets me much too much for my own good (this is the only ship it would devastate me to have the show break up).

But with Lee and Dee, while I can see that it's a good relationship for the characters, it doesn't attract me too much :P The same was true with Billy and Dee. Liked them together but wasn't shipping them one way or another...

You should catch up. :) It's awesome. How far are you into S2?

[bodea.livejournal.com]

My icon? It's Bright and Hannah from Everwood. Another one of my obsessions. I'm only on ep 4 of season 2. I so agree with you, I'd die if they split up Helo and Sharon. I love them. I might agree with you on Dee and Lee. Like I said, I haven't actually seen any eps that warrant me shipping them yet, it's all actor love! After I catch up, I may find them lacking as well. Yeh, I totally love BSG. Such a well written show.