I like the episode, I like Martha, & love the Doctor. Happy making ep at last! And some badfic mock

[dangermousie]

I promise to reply to everyone shortly.

My LJ time has been rather limited of late, apologies.

In other news, I saw a Doctor Who S3 ep I really liked!



I decided to take the flist advice and skip the second part of the stupid NY two parter and watched 'Lazarus Experiment' instead and I liked it. A lot. The Doctor was geeky and scattered and just awesome, with his understanding that immortality is not desired but a curse, when he talks what i's like to outlive everyone you love, to be left behind, to lose all you care about and be alone (when he is talking to Lazarus). And I so love his passionate decency (my favorite quality about him), how angry he gets because Lazarus thinks some people are worth nothing, aren't as good or great as others. His whole behavior in this ep is shot through with his experience with Rose and with his travels in the last two seasons (I am sure other experiences, too, but am talking about most immediate ones). Rose was living proof that yes, someone might be ordinary, a shopgirl, and rise to the heights of saving the world. Twice. Or think of that maid in the Dickens ep. A nobody who sacrificed everything. Etc etc. The Doctor's world is full of ordinary people doing the extraordinary, so notion that they are dispensable are anathema to him.

Oh, and shock of shocks, I liked Martha. Seriously. I don't love her, or anything, but she doesn't bore me any more. They finally gave her some color, some character: we saw her family, her fear, her bravery, her longing for the Doctor and disappointment that she is nothing more for him than a nice passenger he can easily leave behind. She wants more, and she is so full of a schoolgirl crush, and on the latter, I got to say, she just needs to read 'he is just not that into you.' The most he is capable of is treating her as some sort of a nice, capable, not too close chum (which is the status she earns by the end of the ep). He is lonely, and Martha is good in a crisis and a pleasant travelling companion. But that is all. The Doctor doesn't open much anyhow, but the experience with Rose only exacerbated it. He was vulnerable after the Time War, he opened up to Rose and became even more vulnerable (if you are a shipper like me, you'll say he fell in love with her) and we all saw Doomsday. He's going to lock his feelings away into a big big lockbox for quite a while. I mean, no matter what, Martha is cursed to be the rebound girl.

But yeah, I like her, though want her to stop freaking moping.

And I just realized why Ten wears trainers with his suits. It's because he runs so damn much ;)

I like all the Harold Saxon hints.

Here are some screencaps from the ep, largely focusing on awesomeness that is the face of David Tennant. And there are Lord Peter comparisons :P





Martha's room is kinda messy:



Saying bye:



Demento cap 1:



Love the grin:



Mmmmm. Black tie:



Reacting to a Bond comparison, heeee:



Party:



LOL. 'I am meeting a scary mother' face:



Demento cap 2:



Talking to Lazarus:



Demento cap 3:



This I really like. Dapper and with a touch of insanity:



Quoting Elliot. You know, for some reason the Doctor comes across as so very British in this ep. I can't explan, but he does and it's adorable:



My favorite scene, confrontation with Lazarus in the Cathedral, about what it means to be human, and about the value of immortality, and lives of others. He is angry and so full of conviction and humanity (yeah, odd word to use about an alien, whatever):















Demento cap 4:



And this is just hot:



The man with the plan. I don't know, for some reason, after this ep, even though he is too young and his hair is wrong, I can picture DT as Lord Peter. I don't know he just has the same vibe. The Doctor is how Lord Peter would be if he was an immortal alien, down to fast speech and hidden shell shock and compassion for the guilty party which yet won't stop him from doing what he thinks is right.



Martha and her sister. Double the siblings, double the prettiness? They are a very pretty family. Oddly, while in one sense it makes me love to look at them, in another it makes me disassociate because they aren't just pretty in a 'girl on the street' sense, they are stunning and thus feel less real to me. I mean, I know girls who look like Rose or Donna, just as I know guys who look the same type of attractive as Eccleston or Tennant. Attractive but not stunning, and it is all in their character. I don't know anyone who looks as gorgeous as the Jones sisters, and haven't seen anyone like that outside TV or ads, so it automatically labels them (to me) as 'not quite real,' same way a lot of movie people come across, look wise:



Looking at the dead Lazarus:



Interestingly (and completely understandably), such a contrast to the constant touchy-feeliness of S2 with Rose, Ten is very very isolated and not into bodily contact in S3. But sometimes it happens even now, as it does here. Martha certainly earned herself a hug. I love how the hugs are different from hugs with Rose because the relationship underpinning the hugs is so very different.I do feel bad for Martha. She can't help but hope, and it's so completely hopeless. We've all been there: a kind, clever, compassionate and totally inaccessible guy is the super catnip.

Anyway, this is very pretty, like something from a cool 40s movie:







Oh, this cap is totally to die for:



And so is this:



I love it when the Doctor grins:



In other news, I was perusing the big Doctor Who fanfic archive (Teaspoon and an Open Mind). I am pleased to learn that:

a. Threesomes clearly rock the world. Who knew that Doctor/Rose/Jack is the new Holy Trinity. Hmmm.

b. The Doctor could repopulate the galaxy with his offspring. He has kids with Rose, with Martha, with every other companion (male and female), random passerby, and arguably tree stumps. Considering Gallifreyans are supposed to not be randying it up all over the place, is he making up for lost time?

c. Purple hair is so in for companions. Or long names or sparkly nails. We have been spared Unicorns though.

d. If I read the word 'soulmate' again, I am liable to kill someone. I thought that word got all used up by the Buffy fandom, anyway (yes, I ship Buffy/Angel, yes, I ship Doctor/Rose, yes, I think this word should be banned forever).

Comments

[minerva-fan.livejournal.com]

Haven't seen an episode with Martha yet that made me like her, but I'm really not there yet. (Just on S2 in the DVDs.) David Tenant is a wonderful Doctor--I love how he and Chris captured that manic energy of the previous Doctors, while making the character their own. Still wish Rose would come back, but I guess we can only hope.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I am not strongly attached to Martha or anything of the sort. If she decided to get off in the next ep, I wouldn't care in the least. But LE gets points from me for at least not finding her irritating, as I did before. I am not interested in her, but she was likeable in a very 'random character for one ep who helps and goes away' kind of way. Which is already a step up.

I really do love Tennant in the role (and loved Eccleston).

Still wish Rose would come back, but I guess we can only hope.

yeah.

[callmecaito.livejournal.com]

If I read the word 'soulmate' again, I am liable to kill someone... I think this word should be banned forever.

I think we might be soulmates.

(Even Firefox's spell checker hates that word!)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

ROFL. Seriously, whoever invented that word should be cast into pits of hell.

[bennet-7.livejournal.com]

for some reason, after this ep, even though he is too young and his hair is wrong, I can picture DT as Lord Peter. I don't know he just has the same vibe. The Doctor is how Lord Peter would be if he was an immortal alien, down to fast speech and hidden shell shock and compassion for the guilty party which yet won't stop him from doing what he thinks is right.

I assume that the Lord Peter you're casting Tennant as is Lord Peter Wimsey? Or is there some other awesome fictional Lord Peter that I don't know about?

But that's not a half bad idea. The BBC should do a series of mini-series of the Sayers novels. It would be much better than the endless Agatha Christie adaptations every five years - not that I don't like Christie but I think we all bloody know what happened on the frakking Orient Express by now. We haven't seen a new Sayers production since the 80s.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yup, Lord Peter Wimsey, the one and only. And I checked Tennant's age and he was born in 1971, so he is certainly old enough. Now, hmmmm, who would be a good Harriet.

Come on, BBC, adapt some Sayers again!

[thelana.livejournal.com]

(yes, I ship Buffy/Angel, yes, I ship Doctor/Rose, yes, I think this word should be banned forever).

That's why you are my favorite shipper in the entire universe :) *blows kisses*

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Heh. *flattered blush* Seriously, there are a few words that drive me up the wall and this is one of them.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Loved reading your thoughts, and found my way here from who_daily

Admittedly, the Lazarus Experiment wasn't one of my favourites, but admittedly it wasn't bad. And you were right to skip Evolution of the Daleks.

Curious thoughts on Martha, because when she first appeared, I was NOT into her at all. I guess that was still the whole getting over Rose/Doomsday, etc and because I watched them in quick succession I didn't really WANT to like Martha either. But I did find that as time goes on, Martha did grow on me, especially when she got stuff to do, and didn't just get saved and treated like a sort of an extra by the Doctor. Have you seen the rest of Season 3 or is this just a recap for him?

I think you are definetley right about Ten's proximity to Martha though - it is very telling that he NOT letting himself getting invested; he spends the whole series being so concious of not losing someone again, but not allowing him to get close either in case the same thing happens again. Poor Ten, burnt so badly. Of course, Season 3 Ten turns into a big lonely!Ten story, and poor Martha bears the brunt.

But he looks so lovely in a tux :D

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

*waves hi*

Love the icon.

I have been watching S3 (catching up, this is my first time) and yes, the first half of the season was rather slow, but it definitely picked up and got better. I just finished Human Nature/Family of Blood two-parter and it blew my mind. I am still trying to figure out what t post.

I haven't seen the rest of S3 but am spoiled for all the big things :)

it is very telling that he NOT letting himself getting invested; he spends the whole series being so concious of not losing someone again, but not allowing him to get close either in case the same thing happens again.

Exactly. He is so determined not to let her die in 42 but the walls he keeps up are miles and miles thick. I am thinking of the end of FoB where he just tells her everything is OK when it is not.

Poor Ten, burnt so badly. Of course, Season 3 Ten turns into a big lonely!Ten story

I was screencapping the 'John Smith' two-parter, and I screencapped the page of his diary which is about Rose and I was struck that the thing written on it over and over is that she is walking away. That just made something hurt for me. Ummm, Ten really is about loneliness and abandonment, isn't he?

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I'm a huge POTC fan too. Icon by royaltwig.

I'm in New Zealand and Human Nature/Family of Blood JUST screened here, but I couldn't wait and downloaded the last four episodes which I've only just seen. I admit HN/FoB was a fabulous two parter.

Yes! 42 was the episode where it is so obvious what Ten is about, and sums him up for practically the whole season. He wants the companionship, does not want to be lonely. He takes a companion, even though it is half-hearted - perhaps it is what he always does, and knows he has to. He is so determined in 42, saying over and over he will save her, and we know he would do anything, but even in the end when he does save her, the walls - as you said - are still up high and thick. Martha spends half of her time really trying to get through to him, and I think she eventually realises she never will. As I said earlier, I didn't warm to Martha at first but as S3 progressing you can really see her for her merits, and feel bad for the situation she is in. She wants to travel with the Doctor, but wants him to see her.

Yea, Season 3 Ten is all about the loneliness and abandonment, and they reinforce it with practically every episode in some way or another. His loss of Rose, of Gallifrey, of Joan, and in the finale too. I know a lot of people aren't keen on Ten in this season because he's being so "angsty" and "emo" (and it is true, he is being both of those things), but I can kind of see where the poor guy is coming from. I mean, Nine, coming fresh from the Time War finds Rose and she somewhat heals him... makes his regeneration less like a suicide and more like a gift. Rose heals Ten and then he loses her, and so sure, the Doctor has every right to feel bad. But in turn treats everyone around him badly, including Jack and Martha. I think Season 4 and Donna is certainly going to be more about him forgiving himself, and digging himself out of the dark hole he's put himself in. Otherwise we're going to have a very miserable Season 4 :P

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

determined in 42, saying over and over he will save her, and we know he would do anything, but even in the end when he does save her, the walls

In a way, saving her is a selfish action as much as it's selfless: he just can't bear any more guilt and death (of course, he is a good person, precisely because seeing others not suffer makes him happy, but then we are getting too complicated :D)

His loss of Rose, of Gallifrey, of Joan, and in the finale too.

He keeps caring for people/things and they get snatched away. The temptation to just shut down any caring must be enormous. The fact that he can't completely, that there is always something more left to lose just shows how much of a capacity for caring he has.

I mean, Nine, coming fresh from the Time War finds Rose and she somewhat heals him... makes his regeneration less like a suicide and more like a gift. Rose heals Ten and then he loses her, and so sure, the Doctor has every right to feel bad.

I don't think he necessarily treats Martha badly (if he can't reciprocate, he can't) but he is not noticing/putting away things that would interfere with his detachment (such as the fact she's fallen for him) on purpose so I suppose that is not a nice thing to do. We have all been there though, knew someone liked us and tried to ignore it.

But yeah, he was very damaged in 'Rose' and then 'got better' but when he got relaxed/secure, he lost again, in Doomsday. The thing with Rose was always going to be impossible. In the best case scenario, even if she died of old age, she still has the human lifespan, but he let himself go and pretend-believed that she could stay with him 'forever' (in a not-so-subtle juxtposition, that scene when he asks her how long she will stay and she says forever, is right before AoG/Doomsday two-parter). It was one of those 'you know it has t end some day but some other day so won't think about it' things, only it caught up with him.

I do feel for Martha there. She could have been the most perfect woman ever and he would still not have let her in at that point in his life. Actually, I think, Donna will be a 'happier' companion for him. At least from the Runaway Bride ep I got a clear sense she doesn't have a thing for him in the least, and probably won't, and would view him as some sort of a friend/travel buddy, which is exactly what he wants at the moment. Parodoxically, he might be able to let the walls go a little bit precisely because she doesn't want to get in that much.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

In a way, saving her is a selfish action as much as it's selfless: he just can't bear any more guilt and death (of course, he is a good person, precisely because seeing others not suffer makes him happy

You've summed that up far better than I ever could. He wants to save Martha because it is the right and selfless thing to do, and yet he wants to save her to feel better about himself and how he failed Rose. Kind of a vicious circle.

I don't think he necessarily treats Martha badly (if he can't reciprocate, he can't) but he is not noticing/putting away things that would interfere with his detachment (such as the fact she's fallen for him) on purpose so I suppose that is not a nice thing to do. We have all been there though, knew someone liked us and tried to ignore it.


Very true, I guess, although I still feel bad for her, and was glad that she realised it, rather than sitting around pining for him, or having it slowly turn to resentment. As you said, if you can't reciprocate, you just can't, and forcing it is not going to help. It is not his fault that Martha feels the way she does, but then again he puts her in these situations that in no way alleviate her pain, or tends to ignore how they could make her feel, especially if/when he *is* aware of how she feels.

I love Rose/Ten and I think I always will, but I think we all knew that something had to happen to separate them because otherwise she would never leave, and he would never willingly let her go. I suppose they knew Billie was leaving at the end of Season 2, hence why they set their relationship up that way, for maximise emotional impact and TO KILL US. I'm sure if Billie had planned to stay longer, the Ten/Rose story would have arced differently, but that is easy to say in hindsight.

And you're right about Donna (man, you're right about everything!). She doesn't want to be *loved* by him, not in the same way. I think they are both seeking companionship, and I think Ten's walls will come down when he realises that Donna doesn't *want* anything from him that he can't give.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about your earlier commentabout how S4 will be about him climbling out of the pit of despair he dug himself into. And I think you are right. It has to. There is nowhere else to go:

S3 is really about him shutting off more and more things that make him 'human,' closing off more and more. It's all the result of the Canary Wharf battle. He has just started finally being recovered from PTSD of the Time War and hehas finally found someone to assuage his loneliness and to love, and then: it's all gone all over again. There are millions of people dead, and Rose is gone forever. It brings it all back. It's as if he is trapped in some sort of vicious loop of caring and losing. So no wonder that he is like that spaceship in 42, shutting off all 'compartments' for save-protection. If you think about it, he is so much more colder, more ruthless in S3. He turns himself into purely a 'one chance and you are gone' person, because then he doesn't have to care or grapple with loss as it's their fault (only because he is the Doctor, it still hurts him a lot, every bit). But then at the end of the season, with the Master: the Master has done so many unforgivable things, and yet...the Doctor forgives him. I am sure, in part it's because it's a former friend and a Time Lord, but IMO, in part, it's because he's rediscovered this capacity for hope of forgiveness. For himself too, because I think the Master is his very very twisted mirror...

OK, this is a really random ramble.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Not random, makes perfect sense!

You are right: the Doctor we see in Season 3 is ruthless. Of course, this is glimpsed at in The Christmas Invasion, but after the loss of Rose it is very obvious. Especially if you look at how he dealt with the Family of Blood - imprisoning them for eternity, and I'm sure there is another example but my brain can't think of it. He becomes ruthless because he has to. He can't cope any other way. Letting himself care to much, or open up again... well, he associates it with pain, and well... fair enough I guess.

It is interesting with the Master because he has so many excuses to be ruthless/unforgiving towards him, and yet he is not. He forgives him because that loneliness that he can't bear rears its ugly head again. Everyone else in that room would happily have killed the Master, but here of all places the Doctor is willing to forgive. The Master is the last thing he has left of Gallifrey and his old life. He is clinging to that last vestige of times when things made sense to him, and losing the Master is making him fall back into that great big pit of lonely that he's been wallowing in.

But then Martha up and left - at least he didn't *lose* her; they parted on her terms, and I think that has got to mean something at least. She stuck by him when he needed it most, and so he has to take heart from that. I can only assume that he floats around, does his Titanic thing, and decides to go back for Donna? (I haven't read any Season 4 spoilers, so I don't know how exactly the Donna ends up travelling with the Doctor permanently yet)

But yea... S2 is all that sugary sweetness of Doctor and Rose... happy and basically in love without the shagging, and then that unbearable loss in Doomsday. Season 3 is about him punishing himself, which shows up in his determination to protect Martha even while keeping her at arms length. The loss of the other last Time Lord could be detrimental to the Doctor's mental health, but I hope not... S3 was heartwrenching enough for poor old Ten. He needs a bit of happy (and so do I, to be honest... as much as I secretly - or not so secretly - love angsty ruthless Ten).

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

OK, these discussions are totally making my day. Just wanted to let you know.

The loss of the other last Time Lord could be detrimental to the Doctor's mental health, but I hope not...

It's true, it could cause him to shatter completely, but I really really hope not. In a way, he has so hit rock bottom. If he fell even more apart, it would be barely watchable.

Season 3 is about him punishing himself

Maybe that is why he will be able to let go a bit? I mean, the stuff the Master did to him (for a year!) is going to get rid of some portion of even the most severe masochist's self-blame streak.

And for once, the horror and death and destruction were almost utterly reversed, and it wasn't his fault the Master came etc etc. That's got to help.

Because you are right, he is punishing himself. I don't like the Dalek two parter but one thing he said stuck with me, that "they always survive when I lose everything.' Because that is how he defines himself at that point: by his loss.

And yes, Martha leaving on her terms made a huge deal of difference. In a way, the way he lost Rose was the cruelest way it could happen. If she stayed back when he sent her back at first, in that ep, it would have been devastating for them both, but at least it would have been on 'their' terms. But she came back. Despite everything, she came back, chose him over everybody and everything, which to someone as lonely as himself, and with such issues, must have been pure balm. I remember in S1, Nine dangling a carrot of travel to make her pick him over her Mum (temporarily obviously, at one point). The Doctor is actually very needy.

And then, just as he got secure in the fact that yes, once again, they'll save the day, he has her for keeps, their giddy runaround, saving the word while holding hands thing will continue indefinitely...she is gone. And he knows that it's not her choice, he sees the full measure of devastation it is for her, and it's his hope ripped from him again, etc etc.

It really was the cruelest thing they could have done.

The idea that neither are dead - they are both out there, but are separated by forces they can't control. And especially heartwrenching is that Rose has experienced this extraordinary life with an extraordinary man and suddenley has been dropped into real life, and is supposed to try and live normally again. I can't even begin to imagine how tough that would be.

Oh yes. Because Torchwood (and I love the Doctor goes all still and dangerous when he hears that Jack is involved in Torchwood. He really hates them, doesn't he?) might be an interesting place to work, family is good etc etc, but that is not what Rose wants. I wrote in my Doomsday write-up (when I first watched it) that's it's all about being careful what you wish for. Rose of S1 premiere would have loved it, but Rose of Doomsday had a chance for all of it and rejected it all for the Doctor, only to have the choice wrenched away from her.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

I love the discussion too. It is nice to be geeky with other Who fans! :D

Dear god, if things get any more emo in Season 4, then it will be a hell depressing season. But for watchability's sake, I don't think the writers will do that to us. After all, there have been enough complaints in the fandom about Ten being too angsty, or ruthless, so I think he will need sort of healing in Season 4. Poor boy.

"they always survive when I lose everything.'

Oh, god, what a line. I disliked the Dalek episodes in S3 severely, but that is just so telling. His loss is how he defines himself at that stage, and probably how he defined himself in Season One before Rose really got under his skin. I've been rewatching S1 lately, and you can see that underlying sadness through Nine, which slowly becomes better and better until his regeneration. Initially we don't see this loss in Ten, and the theme of loss only really pops up again in School Reunion with Sarah Jane (and providing major hints to the audience to Get Prepared.)

Needy!Doctor. Totally with you there. He was desperate for Rose to come with him... so much that he basically asked *twice*.

I've read a couple of things that suggested that the Doctor was indirectly responsible for the Master's come to power as Harold Saxon, but personally I can't go with that. Sure, you can say that the Doctor basically shunted Harriet Jones out of office (I bet she looked mighty good while he was in that cage!), and therefore opened the way for Saxon. For me? No, I think that as soon as Archangel was in place there was nothing anyone could do. Hard to say - I will need to watch again to really make a decision and get my head around all those little details.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I wonder if the Doctor’s desire to take care of others is, as fire_snake put it in a different thread, his desire to validate himself. Which, to me, more than anything, proves he is broken: he finds meaning for his existence only in helping others which means that he views himself as worhtless on his own terms? I am not sure that is the case, but it’s an interesting thought nontheless.

have been enough complaints in the fandom about Ten being too angsty, or ruthless

I am not really in the Who fandom (it’s too huge) but that’s interesting. I rather like the darkness and the despair. But there has to be hope at the end of the tme-space vortex :P or else it becomes unbearable. But I know how it feels, to have it too dark. My favorite show is Farscape, and S3 is arguably the best, but it’s so dark it’s hard to watch.

underlying sadness through Nine, which slowly becomes better and better until his regeneration. Initially we don't see this loss in Ten, and the theme of loss only really pops up again in School Reunion with Sarah Jane (and providing major hints to the audience to Get Prepared.)

So true. Actually all of S2 is shot through with warnings and foreshadowing. Even the Satan Pit two-parter is sort of foreshadowing of Doctor and Rose’s eventual separation and how horrible it will be for them. But yes, Nine started out so damaged, and by the end of S1 he was almost whole again, or at least able to live with himself. Which is why Ten is the way he is, and not some horridly goth type. But then of course, it is all better only temporarily and goes to pot. And he is confronted with the fact that loss is the one permanent thing in his life. That no, it won’t ever truly stop or get better. In a way, finding Rose was good but in another, her loss broke something necessary in him, again.

I don’t think the Master is the only one with a slippery grasp on sanity, btw. The Doctor’s neuroses are better because they manifest as a sort of a Jesus complex, but he is far from normal.

Sure, you can say that the Doctor basically shunted Harriet Jones out of office (I bet she looked mighty good while he was in that cage!), and therefore opened the way for Saxon. For me? No

Agreed. He didn’t know it would lead to Saxon’s rule, but even with Harriet in office, he would have still hypnotized.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Man, the Doctor is a psychologist's DREAM, isn't he? You could analyse him forever. But I guess you can say it is a Jesus complex - the need to save everyone, and how that perhaps reflects back on how he lost Gallifrey, and lost everything in his own life. Loss and the Doctor go hand in hand, just like death and destruction, sadly - no matter how he tries to avoid it.

S2 was peppered with that heavy reminder of loss - that one constant in the Doctor's life. Even if everything around him is good, eventually he knows he will have to face loss again. It is funny how Ten tends to ignore it - he shuts off from the idea because he can't deal with it. Nine, although more emotionally shutdown, seemed more aware of it - I suppose he is fresh from the events of the Time War. But Ten has dealt with it too much, and knows it is inevitable, but likes to pretend it is not there. I guess if he let himself think about it all the time, he would never enjoy anything. His curse is that he hates to be alone, and yet at the same time must always *be* alone. He may have a companion by his side, but he is never really able to be *together* (in a platonic or romantic sense) with someone. I guess Rose was the closest to that he ever had.

As for darkness in characters, you can completely understand why S3 was written as it was. It is basically a huge memorial season for Rose, and for the Doctor to grieve. If he hadn't done that we wouldn't have respected him as much. Grief manifests itself in different ways and for the Doc it is anger, and ruthlessness, and in the end, that desperation to keep the Master with him to stave off being truly the last of his kind again.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

You could analyse him forever.

Nine hundred years of rebellion and issues would take forever to unravel. It is amazing how someone can be both so functional and so broken at the same time.

how that perhaps reflects back on how he lost Gallifrey, and lost everything in his own life

Earth is his substitute? If he can save Earth/people/a single person, he postpones remembrance of failure for a bit. It's a sort of 'this time I was able to save them' feeling. It's perpetual compensation.

It is funny how Ten tends to ignore it - he shuts off from the idea because he can't deal with it. Nine, although more emotionally shutdown, seemed more aware of it - I suppose he is fresh from the events of the Time War.

Oh yes. Nine also had less time to get used to not being alone (aka Rose). Nine goes berserk when he thinks he lost Rose but in some ways, he is always less remote, more 'reachable.' Though in a way, if he didn't have an anchor in Rose, and if latershe didn't take in the vortex, destroyed the Daleks, ended the war, but they were together and she was killed before this (the way he thought she was in next to last ep of S1), I shudder to think what kind of Nine this would have unleashed on the world.


Doc it is anger, and ruthlessness, and in the end, that desperation to keep the Master with him to stave off being truly the last of his kind again.

Exactly. He is still grieving. I mean, even as late as the three-parter, he is very very touchy about Rose, a completely off-limits topic (his 'blogging' comment), and the way he is during conversation with Jack about her and what really happened...this is not a person who has healed. I really loved that even though she was absent, the feeling of that loss, and the echoes of their relationships were underpinning the whole season.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Earth is his substitute, or at least he feels very strong ties to it (in reality it is probably easier to base a sci-fi show around Earth to make it accessible to the viewers - just like have a 'human' companion to help us understand the Doctor and his life).

If he can save Earth/people/a single person, he postpones remembrance of failure for a bit. It's a sort of 'this time I was able to save them' feeling. It's perpetual compensation.

Yes, and this is why the Master comments on the name that the Doctor has given himself. It implies healing, helping people, saving people. The Doctor sees himself as that person, and for some reason feels especially protective of Earth. It is his role to "heal" people, to "save" people, and hence his strict moral center, as well as his desperate need to do the right thing.

Oh, talking about Nine makes me miss Nine so much! I love the progression we see from his character. "Swanning off" on Rose in Ep1, to really wanting her with him when he realises her worth. And then the utter anger and distress when he thinks anything has happened to her. When she gets blasted by the droid in Bad Wolf and he thinks she is gone... he just shuts down completely.

Yes, S3 is like a homage to Rose, or at least the effect that she has had on him. Even Martha, who knows very little about Rose, senses this and gets jealous when he does mention her. She can sense just how deep that relationship ran. I was glad, as a Doctor/Rose fan, to see that she was not simply forgotten or brushed aside, but we were always reminder of her, and shown the effect Doomsday had on Ten.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Is it all right for me to friend you? (You obviously don't have to friend me back).


Earth is his substitute, or at least he feels very strong ties to it

I agree that it is a narrative shorthand (you can't really have a show all about Doctor's love for Pluto) but the whole transplantation of home/self to a different place reminds me of all the colonial era Englishmen who got so attached to distant, foreign places, who felt more at home there (I am thinking of someone like TE Lawrence).

It implies healing, helping people, saving people. The Doctor sees himself as that person, and for some reason feels especially protective of Earth. It is his role to "heal" people, to "save" people, and hence his strict moral center, as well as his desperate need to do the right thing.

Physician, heal thyself, indeed. I think his desperate need to heal, to make it all better for everyone is really (and that is why it's so interesting) not just altruistic, it's deeply psychologically rooted in his own feelings of unworthiness, in his own need to have Earth as his own private hope.

When she gets blasted by the droid in Bad Wolf and he thinks she is gone... he just shuts down completely.

I loved that scene so much. And then he goes so incredibly angry, so reckless. Nine had this off-kilter, wounded vibe going. In a way, it's fitting that he transforms into Ten when the Daleks are destroyed, because this does make him a new person, with old stressors gone, and a measure of peace.

she was not simply forgotten or brushed aside, but we were always reminder of her, and shown the effect Doomsday had on Ten.

Exactly. I was rewatching bits of Doomsday today (in order to cap) and it's amazing how different Ten is: younger, more human, healed. I've almost forgotten, as I haven't rewatched any of the previous seasons since starting on S3, but the difference is startling. I saw him get 'dark' and 'distant, but I didn't realize just what a stark difference it was until I compared it. All that warmth and giddy fun.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Of course! Friend away!

The Doctor's name for himself, obviously is in his need to want to heal others, and in turn heal himself perhaps. As you said, not entirely altruistic. In helping and saving others, he can feel better about himself. In helping and saving others, he can redeem himself in terms of what he had to do during the Time War. His eternal punishment, and in a way, what he believes is his path to redemption.

Yes, Nine's regeneration is more of a rebirth than anything else, and I think the Season was cleverly written to reflect his slow path of healing through Rose. And yes, Ten is a new era. A new, free, and happy era, with no hangups and having finally almost forgiven himself for the Time War. Then Doomsday happens, and it starts all over again - that feeling of failure, not just in losing Rose, but bringing back all that old emotion of losing his people.

Season 2 is what I like to call the "sugary" season. It is all sap and cute, and written in such a way to show us that Ten and Rose are so happy and complete with each other. Hence why Doomsday is so gutwrenching. If it had been a companion with whom the Doctor had less of a connection with, it wouldn't have killed us so much. But it was Rose, and we all knew how Ten felt about her. I mean, some of the episodes in s2 come with such a hedoistic feel to them: The Idiot's Lantern, Fear Her, and even Tooth and Claw - really showing us the joy that the Doctor and Rose get from one another. As you said, warm and giddy fun. Obviously after that, Season 3 is so much darker, and the Doctor less carefree, and more guarded.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

In helping and saving others, he can redeem himself in terms of what he had to do during the Time War. His eternal punishment, and in a way, what he believes is his path to redemption.

And of course, that is what makes him different from The Master: his way of coping with trauma and war is to want to redeem himself and to save others. Because even S2 Ten, even though he is 'better' recovered than Nine, is still preoccupied with the war (I keep thinking about his comment to the Dalek in Doomsday that he was at the fall of Arcadia and 'Someday I might even come to terms with that.') He is still someone in active recovery process from the horrors of the war. That is why losing Rose is precisely so awful for him: it's not just losing someone he loves, and succumbing to loneliness again, but it's tearing wounds that might be almost healed, but aren't.

I think the Season was cleverly written to reflect his slow path of healing through Rose

Oh yes. You are so right. And that is why S2 hits so hard in retrospect, because there is all this hope, and happiness and then it's snatched away. I think part of the reason Ten is so giddy (I seriously can't think of another word) is because it's a reaction to having such a huge pain and guilt so enormously diminished. It's like a person in severe pain waking up without it. But of course, then comes Doomsday and we are back to square one. In a way, he put all his eggs in one basket, labelled 'Rose,' and then the basket got smashed. It's sort of like the Universe saying, 'Ha! You can never be happy, you will always lose. Yes, I mean YOU.'

with such a hedoistic feel to them: The Idiot's Lantern, Fear Her, and even Tooth and Claw - really showing us the joy that the Doctor and Rose get from one another.

You are so right. Hedonistic is such a perfect word for it. They are so full of joy and warmth and just really really enjoying the world and themselves and each other. And they work so in sync, to the exclusion of others, not on purpose, but automatically.

Yeah, S3 is dark. Hmmm, I wonder what S4 will be like.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Very true! Ten almost wants that human life... Nine didn't "do domestic", but for Ten, many aspects appeal to him. He is more susceptible to love (Reinette for example, as well as Rose), and seems to *want* some sort of normalcy, even though he *wants* to do what he does as well. Even as John Smith, we see him wanting that normal everyday life, and Ten frequently laments that that is his curse - it is something he can never have. Whether he truly wants it or not is an entirely different issue. But for a curious creature such as Ten, not being able to have it probably lends to him wanting it all that more, even if he would never actually take it up and be happy to live a more "domestic" life.

(Personally, I think that as much as he likes the thought of it, a human life would bore him to tears eventually). Nine's defense mechanism was that he "didn't do domestic" - it was his way of not having to deal with the fact that he knew he couldn't have it.

In S2, you are exactly right about the basket labeled 'Rose'. And the Doctor knew he was doing it (School Reunion), but found he couldn't stop, I suppose. He believed in her more than anything, and really... he was happy trying to delude himself that it could last, even though he knew it wouldn't.

I really hope S4 is the healing season. Not that I want Ten to forget Rose or the Master, because I doubt he ever will, but I think the poor guy has had enough torment. Although, to be honest, with all the stuff that went down in LoTL, it is hard to say exactly how they are going to write Ten. I think to do him too dark again is a mistake (in terms of attracting/maintaining an audience), but on the other hand, I don't want to see him bouncing around like the Master/Utopia/the year that never was/Martha never had any effect on him. I hope they find a nice balance. And I'm sure Donna is perfectly capable of slapping him out of any funk he gets in anyway.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

He is more susceptible to love (Reinette for example, as well as Rose), and seems to *want* some sort of normalcy, even though he *wants* to do what he does as well.

I think this is probably because he is more healed than Nine: he can feel easier, fall easier, be more ‘normal.’

, not being able to have it probably lends to him wanting it all that more, even if he would never actually take it up and be happy to live a more "domestic" life.

True. I think he might like it for a change, but not as a permanent, or even semi-permanent thing. But I think he’d be less interested in having an ordinary human life if everything else was OK. For him, the longing in S3 is as much (IMO) about wanting to believe in his own ‘humanity’ (to use that word in a philosophical, not scifi species sense), in escaping loneliness and loss. He is much less interested in it in S2 then in S3. If you think about it, the situation with Rose in S2 was pretty much perfect for him: he can have travel and adventure and extraordinary stuff and yet he can also be with someone who loves it as much as he does and wouldn’t want to leave him. He is adventuring and he isn’t alone. He doesn’t have to pick between the two. But then Doomsday happened and he was rather brutally reminded that he can’t have it both ways. So in S3, part of his issues is that he can have the usual adventurer life, but he is cripplingly lonely and is faced with loss as his only constant and doesn’t want to allow anyone in again. And the only way he can have a ‘human’ life, to allow himself to feel and to care in a personalized way about someone is when he literally negates his Time Lord self. Joan could never be integrated into the non John Smith part of him and his life.

He believed in her more than anything, and really... he was happy trying to delude himself that it could last, even though he knew it wouldn't.

Oh yes. I knew it was going to be bad when I saw SR, but then, in the Satan Pit, when he said that he believes in Rose more than anything, I knew it was going to get very very VERY bad. Because Ten is so incredibly human and he can’t help but need hope and keep hoping, and of course, that is the worst part. That is why it hits him so hard when he loses Rose.

I hope they find a nice balance. And I'm sure Donna is perfectly capable of slapping him out of any funk he gets in anyway.

Oh, I hope they find a balance too. I mean, starting with Doomsday, this whole season is like a catalogue of loss. If they don’t try to going for a healing, they are going to have to start tearing off his fingernails to give him something else to angst about, because they are bound to run out of things to torture him with, soon.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. There is nothing further they can do to torture him, unless they start inventing other Time Lords or other miserable things to do to him (and let's face it, Ten is good at angst, but there is only so much one can take, even being a Time Lord, before wanting to hurt yourself).

As you've said before, I've just started rewatching S2, and the difference between S2 and S3 is so blantant. Ten is so... happy and carefree, and calm, while S3, he is flighty and angry and in general comes across as much more world-weary, and harsh. I guess loss will do that to a person.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, past a certain point, it's just going to become over the top. They really hopefully will stop with it, now. Plus, I can't see Donna as a companion o super!falling!apart!Doctor.

Ten is so... happy and carefree, and calm, while S3, he is flighty and angry and in general comes across as much more world-weary, and harsh. I guess loss will do that to a person.


it's both heart-breaking and startling at the same time. But the thing is, it's so bad for him at the end of S3, especially with the year that never was, that thee is no way to go but up. For sheerfunctioning's sake, even if he isn't healed, he just has to repress all that trauma.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

LOL, no Donna wouldn't put up with that - she is not the type, or at least in my mind. Perhaps her strength will hold him up.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Maybe she'll be an emotional cushion? Distant enough to be unthreatening, but common sense enough to help.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

I think her appeal to the Doctor is obvious - she doesn't want anything from him. Rose wanted forever, and Martha wanted him to love her, and he could give neither. Donna for once, perhaps only wants companionship - something he can give, and to see the stars. Who knows!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Someone as traumatized as he is and as detatched as he wants to be at this point in time would find Donna a perfect companion.

Btw, I find it interesting, the change in Doctors to reflect our fictional tastes. He started out in the 60s as a benevolent grandpa (at least so Mr. Mousie tells me, I never watched classic Who) and has transformed into a sexy mess.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Yes, growing ever more progressively younger, and closer to his companions. It is obvious what sells in the modern world. Tennant & Eccleston are two of the younger Doctors, and shallowly, I think I prefer it that way!

P.S.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

So sorry about the stuck space key and thus weird grammar stuff. *argh*

Re: Rose/Ten. You are right: something had to happen to separate them because otherwise she would never leave, and he would never willingly let her go.

I read some comment from TPTB to the effect of that they had to end it this way, because if they were in the same universe, there was no power that could have stopped Rose and the Doctor getting back to each other.

In a way, her not dying is even crueler. The thought of not being able to be with someone you love (for her or for him), not because they are dead, or their feelings have changed. In fact, they are out there, everything you wanted (for Rose), they still love you, you just can't reach them...argh.

Re: P.S.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think I read something like that too. The only way to separate them was by force. That meant death... or basically something like what they did.

But yes, I think it is infinetely tougher, and that is the part that always makes me blubber like a baby. The idea that neither are dead - they are both out there, but are separated by forces they can't control. And especially heartwrenching is that Rose has experienced this extraordinary life with an extraordinary man and suddenley has been dropped into real life, and is supposed to try and live normally again. I can't even begin to imagine how tough that would be.

Makes me whimper just thinking about it.