dangermousie: (LOTR: A/A by can't find the maker's name)
[personal profile] dangermousie
Yesterday, I restarted my Lord of the Rings rewatch, and before I passed out, Mr. Mousie and I got as far as the Nazgul attack on the hobbits at Weathertop (where Frodo gets stabbed with the Nazgul blade).

Oh God. I still love this movie to bits: the dreamy lushness of the shire, the menace of the Nine (I was grabbing Mr. Mousie’s arm), the fluid camera moves, and the characters all perfectly stepping out of my imagination, from Frodo’s big-eyed wonder and Sam’s sturdy sense, to Aragorn’s intensity and quiet voice. And Merry and Pippin. Oh, I’ve forgotten how I loved the two. Merry is definitely the pragmatic, ‘thinky’ one even so early on, and Pippin is the baby of the group.

Mmmmm. Aragorn. Still awesome (My favorite character, I admit). I get the same sense of security when he first appears (especially when the hobbits are lost as to their course of action) as I did in the book: knowing nothing truly horrible can happen as someone so capable is there. Of course, horrible things can happen still, but you forget for a moment.

A few things really get me on rewatch:

1. Bilbo telling Gandalf that Frodo is still in love with the Shire and so shouldn’t leave. That just makes it incredibly heart-breaking, as you know after his journey the Shire will be forever poisoned to him. It’s not as if he is Bilbo, wanderlust hobbit who is bored and on to the next thing after Shire. He saved the Shire and he loved it, but he never got to enjoy it at all. (Just as Bilbo’s comment of there always being a Baggins in Bag End makes me tear up a little).

2. The hobbits are such civilians at this point: lighting a fire at Weathertop etc etc. And why should they know any better, have any other instincts like that? It’s sad that they learn.

3. The passing of the Elves fills me with sadness as well. You get the sense of something more special than every day world leaving forever, the connection with living myth. But Sam’s comment about never being able to sleep in the wilderness..oh yeah, bittersweet.

4. When Aragorn tells the hobbits of the Nazgul and says ‘they were once men’…he is thinking again of being bound by the common guilt of his ancestors, isn’t he? Even though he shouldn’t as it isn’t his fault. And some of these are literally his ancestors probably.

5. Aragorn singing the song of Beren and Luthien. I am so struck that his answer to Frodo’s question as to who was Luthien and what happened to her is ‘She died.’ Because Luthien was and did many many things, including prying a jewel from the crown of the current Big Bad’s Boss (!!!) but all Aragorn is consumed by is the thought that an Elf Maiden loving a mortal made her mortal as well. That is the only thing he can see. No wonder Elrond convinces him to give up Arwen, he is consumed with guilt.

6. Gandalf the Grey has so much hope, and humanity, and despair in him (you can’t tell whether he is devastated or relieved when for a second it looks as if the Ring isn’t the One Ring). I am never as in love with Gandalf the White, more remote.

7. Attention to detail point 1,458: when they leave the inn at Bree, Aragorn has clean hair. Because he’s stayed in a town, after all. But not so later, when they are out in the wild: his hair gets matted a bit, and his fingernails have grass and dirt stains. And he is STLL hot. Ummm, slipped out…

Btw, I love the story of Beren and Luthien. It would probably make a neat movie (or a really horrible one). There is this super long Russian-language fanfic about them which I had book-marked ages ago but haven’t read (По Ту Сторону Рассвета, Ольга Брилева). Time to pull it out.

Date: 2007-08-16 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ysrith.livejournal.com
Oooh, this is making me more determined to do my own rewatching. I have been threatening to do this for the last few weeks.

Date: 2007-08-16 08:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
You should! I'd love having someone to glee with.

Date: 2007-08-16 08:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
God, you should definitely read PTSR. it reads like part of canon and yet something more - some themes explored more deeply, some backstory enlargened - and yet it stays inside of Tolkien's world perfectly. she not so much retells the myth as she reconstructs is, in Mary Reno's 'Theseus' sort of way, and I don't know any other who could pull this off. and she does an awesome job on all characters, but especially on Beren, Finrod and Galadriel. it's a really gorgeous story, and one that does original story justice.

(also, I dare you not to cry your eyes out in certain part of the books. it's literally brimming with angst, but never of 'woe-is-me-i'm-so-pitiful' variety., just real, palpable desperation of fighting unwinnable war),

Date: 2007-08-16 08:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
I have started PTSR and it is (so far) excellent. I tried it years ago and liked it but then lost track of it and somehow never continued. I do remember having a thing for her Beren.

I know it was published in book form, so I might see if any of the bookstores that ship to the states would have it (normally I'd be lazy and go to kniga.com but they don't have it and something like ozon.ru is sort of a pain to order from if you are abroad).

Date: 2007-08-16 08:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
it's virtually impossible to find a book now - first print was too small and sold out almost immedeately. she is trying to find a publisher for second try now: http://community.livejournal.com/izdato/751012.html.

she also wrote a very cool new book lately, heart of the sword, which I enjoyed greatly. basically it's 'fifteen years old captain' retold as a catholic space opera - it's original, it's good written, it has some amazing characters and well-paced actions. (and lots of good h/c too).

Date: 2007-08-16 08:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
I'll just read it online then.

Eeeee! 15 year old captain! I read it in third grade and was mad about it. He seemed so grown up at the time :)

Date: 2007-08-16 08:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
I loved original one - I loved Dick because he was such an appealing character, child who suddenly become most grown'up of all group. all this responsibility, cool professionalism... mm, it's one of my favourite Verne's books still.

but it always seemed more like outline of the book rather than actual book for me. well, she fixes it so very neatly (and for now there's only first part written and published, it will be a trilogy; she writes second part right now).

Date: 2007-08-16 08:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
but it always seemed more like outline of the book rather than actual book for me.

It was a fairly slim novel. And seriously, looking back, even then I liked h/c as the thing I remember most vividly, aside from them going over the waterfall, is him being tied up to a stake as a sacrifice.

I love this book. Almost as much as Children of Captain Grant.

Date: 2007-08-16 08:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
oh yes. h/c things was... it was pretty intense for teenage book, by the way, and I remember it so very intently.
(and well, you'll like HotS in this aspect. it, well, delivers. in spades).

Date: 2007-08-16 09:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
Must read then!

P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 08:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
OMG, you read Theseus.

*dies*

The two books of that are in my Top 10 books in any language. I love them so incredibly much. Though all the stuff post Hypolita death in 'Bull from the Sea' made me cry and cry and get depressed.

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 08:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
I've bought it accidentally from bookseller for fifteen rubles this summer and was sucked in immediately. she reconstructs everything so lovingly and real, and her Theseus, while not perfect in any sense of this world, is very... reliable, um, noble perhaps. and yes, it's almost impossible to read after Hypolita (it's such a pity that his kingdom haven't outlive him at all), and all-this Fedra-related stuff... I liked her more when she was a child.

I think I liked Crete part most of all - he was so young and so sure already, this king-without-kingdom (hello, Aragorn), and he did pull everybody through. everything after this feels like going down.

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
I think I liked Crete part most of all - he was so young and so sure already, this king-without-kingdom (hello, Aragorn), and he did pull everybody through. everything after this feels like going down.

Oh, agreed, that was my favorite part. I think nothing in his life ever compared to that brief high where everything he had and was had to be put on the line hourly. It's a very PTSD/adrenaline junkie thing. Some people get it in war. He wanted nothing but to get away from it, and to save everyone but once he did, nothing could compare to that intensity.

Until Hypolita, and he found a substitute (though that sounds denigrating and I don't mean to) for that Cretan intensity of experience in loving her and in being with her as equals, but that was different and once she died, everything went with her. And of course he wasn't as young then, either, to start again.

I still remember the first time reading these books and I got to her death and my parents had a dinner party so I had to present myself but my face was all blotched.

And yes, I love that he is flawed: too arrogant, too 'barbarian,' too young (in the beginning) in others, but overall...one of my favorite fictional characters.

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 09:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
he did get his premonition about life after Crete after all, in form of these two girls from his group who died - Philia and other one: you can escape Crete, but you can't live it behind, and you'll be left hanging between two worlds. he did it until he could - and then fell. it feels almost on physical level in the last parts, the way he cares less and less and less. and you know the way it would end, and still want in not to, and it all crashes down, damn it.

and poor Hyppolytus, who doesn't deserve this fate at all. and this really creepy scene with Oedipus. and also that one, when he, paralyzed, becomes aware of losing his earthquake premonitions, his only link to his God - ahhh, I wish I'd stopped reading at Hyppolyte part, while everything were good.

I think what loved most about him was how actually good with people he was - not exactly manipulative, but rather seeing them through and bonding with them directly, and really caring. you can feel his people's loyalty, and it isn't forced or bought - he earns it honestly all the time and deserves it.

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 09:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
this really creepy scene with Oedipus. and also that one, when he, paralyzed, becomes aware of losing his earthquake premonitions, his only link to his God

The Oedipus thing was very very trippy, but the earthquake power loss broke my heart because it was the one certainty he had left and he needed it so much earlier in life (in order to believe he'd survive) but he needed it now even more in order to continue living.

seeing them through and bonding with them directly, and really caring

And I loved that Renault is so good at writing this because it's first person so if he said something 'i care for people' it would just come across as stupid, but somehow you get this sense anyway.

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 09:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
yes - she avoids all traps of writing in first person pov beautifully (and she also very subtle in the parts where he rationalizes his more unsavory decisions - like one with canvas that costs Aegeus his life, or leaving Ariadna on Naksos. by the way, have you read Tsvetaeva's 'Ariadna' and "Fedra' pieces? she focuses on women part of story more, as usual, but somehow it fits so good). even though everything is shown through Theseus eyes to us, it's still showing rather than telling.

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 10:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
you read Tsvetaeva's 'Ariadna' and "Fedra'

A long time ago. So long I barely remember Fedra (which is the one I read) so should reread.

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 10:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
АРИАДНА

1

Оставленной быть - это втравленной быть
В грудь - синяя татуировка матросов!
Оставленной быть - это явленной быть
Семи океанам... Не валом ли быть
Святым, что с палубы сносит?

Уступленной быть - это купленной быть
Задорого: ночи и ночи и ночи
Умоисступленья! О, в трубы трубить -
Уступленной быть! - Это длиться и слыть
Как губы и трубы пророчеств.

21 апреля 1923

2

О всеми голосами раковин
Ты пел ей...
- Травкой каждою.

- Она томилась лаской Вакховой.
- Летейских маков жаждала...

- Но как бы те моря ни солоны,
Тот мчался...

- Стены падали.
- И кудри вырывала полными
Горстями
- В пену падали...

Ariadna's story is probably saddest of all, because she gave him his victory - and he got scared and run. dark.

(erm, I've just realized that I'm probably spamming your post somewhat hardcore; sorry for this, I seem really talkative tonight).

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 10:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
That is a beautiful poem.

No worries about spamming, I love it.

and he got scared and run. dark.

But I could also see why he did it.

Btw, I started PTSR and it's amazing.

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 10:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
I can understand him, yes, but there also was this hint of hypocrisy - it's okay for man!woman like Hyppolyta to be wild, but scary in feminine!woman like Ariadna... and he never said good-bye to her, and he left her behind without even giving a reason. and I think this was the actual start of his fall.

I love this one even more:

ЖАЛОБА

Ипполит! Ипполит! Болит!
Опаляет... В жару ланиты...
Что за ужас жестокий скрыт
В этом имени Ипполита!

Точно длительная волна
О гранитное побережье.
Ипполитом опалена!
Ипполитом клянусь и брежу!

Руки в землю хотят - от плеч!
Зубы щебень хотят - в опилки!..
Вместе плакать и вместе лечь!
Воспаляется ум мой пылкий...

Точно в ноздри и губы - пыль
Геркуланума... Вяну... Слепну...
Ипполит, это хуже пил!
Это суше песка и пепла!

Это слепень в раскрытый плач
Раны плещущей... Слепень злится.
Это -- красною раной вскачь
Запаленная кобылица!

Ипполит! Ипполит! Спрячь!
В этом пеплуме - как в склепе.
Есть Элизиум - для - кляч:
Живодерня! - Палит слепень!

Ипполит! Ипполит! В плен!
Это в перси, в мой ключ жаркий,
Ипполитова вза - мен
Лепесткового - клюв Гарпий!

Ипполит! Ипполит! Пить!
Сын и пасынок? Со - общник!
Это лава - взамен плит
Под ступнею! - Олимп взропщет?

Олимпийцы?! Их взгляд спящ!
Небожителей - мы - лепим!
Ипполит! Ипполит! В плащ!
В этом пеплуме - как в склепе!

Ипполит, утоли...

7 марта 1923


2
ПОСЛАНИЕ

Ипполиту от Матери - Федры - Царицы - весть.
Прихотливому мальчику, чья красота как воск
От державного Феба, от Федры бежит... Итак,
Ипполиту от Федры: стенание нежных уст.

Утоли мою душу! (Нельзя, не коснувшись уст,
Утолить нашу душу!) Нельзя, припадя к устам,
Не припасть и к Психее, порхающей гостье уст...
Утоли мою душу: итак, утоли уста.

Ипполит, я устала.. Блудницам и жрицам - стыд!
Не простое бесстыдство к тебе вопиет! Просты
Только речи и руки... За трепетом уст и рук
Есть великая тайна, молчанье на ней как перст.

О прости меня, девственник! отрок! наездник! нег
Ненавистник! - Не похоть! Не женского лона - блажь
То она -- обольстительница! То Психеи лесть -
Ипполитовы лепеты слушать у самых уст.

- "Устыдись!" - Но ведь поздно! Ведь это
последний всплеск!
Понесли мои кони! С отвесного гребня - в прах -
Я наездниица тоже! Итак, с высоты грудей,
С рокового двухолмия в пропасть твоей груди!

(Не своей ли?!) - Сумей же! Смелей же!
Нежней же! Чем
В вощаную дощечку - не смуглого ль сердца воск?! -
Ученическим стилосом знаки врезать... О пусть
Ипполитову тайну устами прочтет твоя

Ненасытная Федра...

11 марта 1923

Re: P.S.

Date: 2007-08-16 10:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
Re: Ariadne. I think he was older with Hyppolita, but also there wasn't this inconsistency/duality in her character: she was a warrior, the end. I think what bugged him was the loss of control in Ariadne, the revelling in slaughter, not just a clean battlefield fight of equals like what Hypolita would have done.

But I agree it was the beginning of his fall because it evoked Minos' curse...

Those poems are beautiful.

Date: 2007-08-16 08:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladysaotome.livejournal.com
Have you read the Lays of Beleriand? I especially love the story of Beren and Luthien as told in the poetic forms of that book.

Date: 2007-08-16 08:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
I haven't. Mmmm, must track down!

Date: 2007-08-16 08:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ladysaotome.livejournal.com
A small excerpt from when Beren catches her in the woods:

But as she went he swiftly came
and called he with the tender name
of nightingales in elvish tongue,
that all the woods now sudden rung :
"Tinúviel ! Tinúviel !"
And clear his voice was as a bell ;
its echoes wove a binding spell :
"Tinúviel ! Tinúviel !"
His voice such love and longing filled
one moment stood she, fear was stilled ;
one moment only ; like a flame
he leaped towards her as she stayed
and caught and kissed that elfin maid.

As love there woke in sweet surprise
the starlight trembled in her eyes.
[...]

Date: 2007-08-16 09:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] egelantier.livejournal.com
a song of beren and luthien - you can even listen to it )

Date: 2007-08-16 09:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
That's beautiful...

Date: 2007-08-16 11:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] elvensapphire.livejournal.com
I love the story of Beren and Luthien.

Siiiiigh.

One of my very favorite parts of Tolkien is the story of Beren and Lúthien. "He called her by her Elvish name, and there she halted listening. One moment stood she, and a spell his voice laid on her." It's absolutely gorgeous.

I don't know if I've ever mentioned this, but I love it whenever you do a post about LOTR because your adoration for it is so palpable. I don't usually delve into a lot of detail in response, partly because I could talk about LOTR ad nauseam, and partly because it's a very personal thing for me, but reading your entries regarding the trilogy always make me remember why it's so special and beautiful and...perfect.

Date: 2007-08-17 06:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
Thank you so much!

But yeah, I love the book and the movies so much. There is always something new to discover there.

Date: 2007-08-17 01:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thinking-lotus.livejournal.com
mmmm aragorn ... maybe it's time for T & me to rewatch this ...

Date: 2007-08-17 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dangermousie.livejournal.com
It is totally wonderful so... :)

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