I am Vader (and other musings)

[dangermousie]

Yes, in an abstract world, if Padme told him "no, I'd rather die, than for you to destroy everything I love, including yourself" Anakin would listen. But realistically, who WOULD listen to this from someone they love? No one. You would not just turn to the wall and say, "fine, you can die then." Never.

In fact, I just had a most unsettling realization. If I were in Anakin's place, I would do exactly what he did. If I could do ANYTHING to save my husband from dying, I would. Even if I had to kill children. Children I somewhat know versus someone I love more than anything else in the world? I'd hate myself forever, but I'd grit my teeth and do it. Abstract principles could not stand against love. Nor compassion, not even decency. I'd do anything. And that is why I can never hate Anakin. Despise him and pity him? Yes. But it's rather a scary thought to realize that if I were in his place, I would be Ms. Vader. And so would many others I imagine.

I was also thinking about the scene at the end of ROTS, when Padme tells him they should go away. He can't. Yes, he is somewhat drunk on power (Dark Side corrupts of course), but the large chunk is that he simply cannot because he doesn't know the secret to save her from death, the secret he has done all this horror for. He has paid a terrible price to save her, but if he leaves, it would have all been for nothing. Palpatine really knows how to play his cards too well.


Also, I was wondering if his nightmares about Padme (just like his nightmares about his Mother) are in part like echoes of the future. let me explain. He has very developed precognition skills. And the Jedi have the ability to feel pain of other Jedi (see Yoda feeling Anakin's pain on AotC). So what if because he is the Chosen One and so attuned to the Force, the nightmares are really a combination of precognition and feeling pain, and are reflections of the pain he will feel in the future when they die, because the pain is so great.

And of course, the insiduous thing about the fact that he is afraid of the pregnancy is that it's not as if he can do anything different to prevent it: she is already pregnant. And she is on an irreversible time-table. She will deliver in X months no matter what. He cannot put it off (as he could if he e.g. saw her dying in a gunfight. He could keep her somewhere with no guns and give himself more time to figure it out). This is pressure at its worst, and his reaction is pure panic. He just hasn't thought it through. He just wants to get her through this crisis and then he will think (e.g. what would he do? He can't live forever even with Plagueis's art and then he couldn't keep her alive after he is dead). But of course he is not thinking rationally or ahead. He is pure desperate panic.

Of course, he is generally a concrete thinker. He has no patience or mind for zen-like contemplation and abstraction. He needs things explained to him (if the Jedi or Padme gave him some books to read, he would be much better off). He is not in the least stupid, but he is not someone who comes to knowledge through intrinsic comprehension. The whole "wait and it will come to you" does not work for him. He tries to go on the information he has, with disastrous results. If he was taught through verbal/written stuff as opposed to be able to imbibe it by osmosis, he might not have as deep a level of understanding as someone like Obi-Wan, but he would understand enough to not be clueless and dangerous (this goes both re: Sith and politics). If you think about it, Palpatine is the first person who really exlains anything to him re: Sith, Jedi etc. Granted, it's an evil and skewed perspective, but he latches on to it in part because he hasn't been given any alternatives.

In a barely related thought, the Jedi really did him a great disservice when they told him he was the Chosen One. He was simply too young to know. If they told him when he was much older, it would be one thing. But a child? Wrong! And the contrast between being the Chosen One and the way they treat him (somewhat like a misfit freak) would really grate and eat away on someone who has any self esteem and pride, and he does even as a child. Baaaaad.

Part II to come tomorrow.

Comments

[rabidfangurl.livejournal.com]

Abstract principles could not stand against love. Nor compassion, not even decency. I'd do anything.

Yes. In the novelization, Obi-Wan says flat out: "Anakin is loyal to people, not principles." Which, in the case of something like a direct threat to some he loves, leads to bad judgment and irrational thought (though also to sometimes superhuman efforts; see also Bob-tossing and protecting Obi-Wan from Dooku at all costs).

But it's rather a scary thought to realize that if I were in his place, I would be Ms. Vader.

::clears throat, raises hand:: Ditto. Not that I don't spend half my RL time swearing up and down that Anakin and I are psychic twins somehow (I have more of his flaws and traits than I care to count. No Force powers, though.).

He needs things explained to him (if the Jedi or Padme gave him some books to read, he would be much better off).

It's a well established bit of fanon that the Jedi have classes in every subject in the galaxy to prepare them for their lives. Did Anakin just sleep through those, or was he just not much for book learning?

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean about things like handling light sabers or the structure of the Senate. I meant about more abstract philosophical stuff.

Btw, by fanon do you mean Lucas-authorized stuff or pure fanon? I tend to see anything outside of films, novelizations and a few other things as not canon, so I don't think they have anything in canon which leads me to thinking that they might not (in my opinion they didn't, otherwise he wouldn't be like that).

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

P.S. I am basing it on the fact that Anakin, who is no dummy, seems to have little knowledge of the Sith and by Yoda's wholly inadequate approach to when Anakin talks about nightmares, etc.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[rabidfangurl.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming knowledge of the Sith is really Masters-only level stuff. Wouldn't want the baby Jedi getting Ideas, now would we?

In terms of fanon, I was referring mostly to pure fanon, with a little reference to Lucas authorized stuff like the Jedi Quest series and the Clone Wars novels.

I still don't think Anakin would be much one for book learning, but I imagine if Padme or Obi-Wan had sat him down and gave him an afternoon long talk on Why Democracy is Good and What, Exactly, is Wrong with Defying the Will of the Force (keeping people alive past their expiration date = defying the will of the Force) he would get it. He does very well if people explain things to him using small words and concrete examples. Which is why Sidious uses him so easily: he can explain things in a way Anakin understands.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yes. You've put it much better than I could.

In some ways, Anakin makes an ideal soldier. If you tell him: "these are bad guys. This is who you are fighting for (your family etc etc). This is how you use your lightsaber" he would be efficient and happy. But abstractions do not work for him. He fights and loves for people, not ideals.

[rabidfangurl.livejournal.com]

In some ways, Anakin makes an ideal soldier.

The plot bunnies strike back: now I'm having visions of a clone army of Anakins. Which, considering the timing in AotC, could actually be plausible. ::fears::

In other news, I now want an icon reading "Anakin Skywalker: Dumb Blond".

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Heeee. Of course, the clones would have to be modified, as the Real Anakin is also extremely rebellious. Heck, if they cut in half the amount of independence for the clone of Anakin, it would still probably be more uppity than a normal, average person. Anakin isn't good at orders...

[rabidfangurl.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, modifications are in order. I do think some of the rebelliousness is a nature/nuture thing, though; to wit, if Anakin had been raised in an environment where he was allowed some freedom and respect, I think he would have been less rebellious and more docile. I mean, when he decides to be loyal to someone, he is *loyal* and follows orders fairly well. So, clone!Anakin could theorectically be raised to be loyal and follow orders.

[ewanspotter.livejournal.com]

What's so very sad about Anakin doing what he did is that Padme would have probably rather died herself than see him fall like that and hurt others like he did.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yes, but even if she voiced it, he wouldn't listen and that is understandable. Ah, the tragedy!

I'm not too sure where I surfed in from...

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

But I just wanted to butt in and say I've been looking for interesting ROTS discussions all day, and I'm so happy to have (at last!) found one :)

Love your icons too--esp "save a horse, ride a sith lord" ::splutter:: Indeed!

The only thing I can think of to add is rather tangential, which is that it struck me Luke shows some of the same character flaws Anakin displays. He, too, runs off to save his friends, even though Yoda tells him not too. Then he insists on fighting the big bad (Darth Vadar/Dooku in ep 2) before he's ready and loses a hand in the process. Luke, however, doesn't have obsessional love motivating him and a truly evil mentor whispering poison in his ears.

Re: I'm not too sure where I surfed in from...

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Welcome! Yeah, I am a SW nut and very verbose so I love discussing SW all over my lj :)

You are right about Luke/Anakin parallels.

The deck is much less stacked against him, of course. For one thing, he sees Palpatine as someone who's killed his friends and is an evil dictator, not a benevolent and wise leader. And he has no Padme. Anakin might be a good person, but when it comes to a contest, Padme is always going to win over anyone else, even Obi-Wan. It is understandable (even romantic) but it gives Palpatine a deadly lever.

Re: I'm not too sure where I surfed in from...

[rabidfangurl.livejournal.com]

And he has no Padme.

Leia serves a Padme-like role for Luke, though. I mean, he initially starts the whole sequence of events that is the OT because he sees the holo-image of Leia and loves her so much he has to try and help her. Then, in ESB, he goes to Bespin because she (and Han) are suffering. And finally, in RotJ, he almost falls to the Dark Side because Vader threatens to turn her to the Dark Side.

::eyes the above paragraph::

Anakin: helps Jedi and Padme because Padme is beautiful, starting off prequel series of events. Goes to Tatooine because of Shmi's pain. Falls to Dark Side because of threat to Padme.

The parallels, they scare me.

Also, I love the fact that Luke and Anakin are both roughly 22-23 when they have to choose between the Dark and the Light. Mostly because they are the same age, and yet, they choose differently.

Re: I'm not too sure where I surfed in from...

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

Also, I love the fact that Luke and Anakin are both roughly 22-23 when they have to choose between the Dark and the Light. Mostly because they are the same age, and yet, they choose differently.

And though Luke isn't up against the magnitude of pressures Anakin faces, he's not completely un-tempted by Vader. Not because Luke wants to cheat death and rule the galaxy, but because he has anger welling up in him too--anger that he'd like to set free.

[lazypadawan.livejournal.com]

I'm not married, so when I think, "Would I kill a bunch of kids for hubby?" I think, "Er, no, I don't think so." Unless they were evil devil children or suicide bombers or something. But otherwise, I can't imagine committing atrocities to save the guy who drops socks on the floor, won't leave the toilet down, and and thinks bodily noises are funny.

Unless said hubby is Hayden :P.

I kid, I kid. At least you are honest. I cannot blame Anakin for wanting to save Padmé's life. ANYONE in his shoes would too. Perhaps it's selfish but that's also the nature of love and it's not always a bad thing. Nobody really buys the "miss them not, mourn them not" approach. The problem IMO is the extent Anakin is willing to go in order to guarantee something that cannot be guaranteed.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

He is going to try his best to save her and he refuses to believe he will fail. He won't let himself believe that it will be in vain (and Palpy feeds that, of course). But even if he thought it would increase her chances of survival greatly, I think he'd still do it.

It's a natural enough impulse. Many people have it. But none of us are powerful enough to do anything about it and be dangerous. Anakin is. The jedi attachment rule, stupid and rigid as it is, does have a good point in there.

[lazypadawan.livejournal.com]

That's why they chose to avoid attachments altogether; volatile emotions combined with powers most beings don't have could have disatrous results. But like Anakin, the Jedi tried to avoid what ended up happening to them anyway.

[linaerys.livejournal.com]

I couldn't do even to save someone I loved. I can imagine feeling the way you say about my child if I had one, but there are things I would not do to save my fiancé. So I find Anakins actions understandable but not forgiveable. And actually, I find his lust for power to be a reason that I can relate to more.

I think his belief that Padme could forgive him anything as long as it is for her is a naive symptom of youth. Since she would rather die that see him kill children, it's not something she could forgive.

The way I see it he gets to a point where both the will to save Padme, and his own ambition are pointing in the same direction. It's not that he doesn't love Padme, but the fact that it's a power he wants anyway makes it easier to justify it to himself.

Interesting discussion!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Well, I think it would of course depend on the person. I know people who'd go to the Dark Side to get rid of their spouse. But most people, I think, have someone in their lives who they would do almost anything to protect.

I think his belief that Padme could forgive him anything as long as it is for her is a naive symptom of youth.

Yes, of course. And I know that my husband would not want me to go on a killing spree if it was the only way to save him, but I would do it anyway, even if it meant never seeing him again. I think there is that in Anakin, plus of course the optimism that she will forgive him, sometime. After all, he did it for her, not just for the kicks of it. In fact, his very reasoning makes it both harder and easier for Padme. There is no question that it's better that he was motivated by love than if he just did it because he was a sociopath who reveled in pain. But also, the fact that he did it for HER must be truly horrifying to Padme. I don't think he is really thinking this through much, in any event: he is pressured and in a blind panic. This said,

she would rather die that see him kill children, it's not something she could forgive.

Anakin was not that far off: on Mustafar, even knowing what he has done, she still loved him and wanted him to come away with her (of course he couldn't because he didn't know the immortality thingy yet).

he gets to a point where both the will to save Padme, and his own ambition are pointing in the same direction

The will to save Padme was the trigger, but you are right, his ambition and indignation over the way the Jedi have treated him goes a long way to "help" him on his way, especially with Palpy cleverly exploring the rift.

[elvensapphire.livejournal.com]

This is brilliant. I am adding it to my memories and coming back to it when I don't have to get offline. :)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks...I always love reading your comments.

Btw, your icon? Guuuuuuh....

[elvensapphire.livejournal.com]

Well, I always love reading your entries. :D I'll definitely think about this one some and then write back.

And thank you!!!! (I love the arena scene...*sigh*)

[wasabi-girl1.livejournal.com]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If I had the Force, I would definitely be on the Dark Side. Everyone would be. How could you NOT love someone? NOT be attached. I mean, sure, Jedi are usually taken from their homes, etc. but the Jedi Order is basically their family. I am so amazed that all of them are able to just detach themselves from their closest friends. It's mind-boggling. Which is why I so easily relate to Anakin.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. Even Yoda who is as perfect a Jedi as they come is upset at the youngling death, "mourn them not" approach earlier notwithstanding