Meta thoughts on hurt/comfort. Why do we love it so?

[dangermousie]

This post arises mainly out of a joking discussion I've been having with lesbiassparrow. But joking or not, it IMO hit on something very interesting to me.

It is the prevalence of hurt/comfort in fanfic and love for hurt/comfort in canon, among fandom. And (at least where I hang out), this fandom, from Harry Potter to dramas to various scifi, is predominantly female.

Why do so many women (myself among them) are such suckers for hurt-comfort scenario? I've liked h/c ever since I remember. When I was a kid. Before I knew what h/c was. We write fic about it, we enjoy reading fic about it, we enthuse when we have h/c in canon. Why? I can't say it's necessarily sexualized, not in the crudest sense of the word. I imagine most h/c fans aren't people who are literally getting excited by a man who is all battered.

But still, most subjects of h/c in fanon are male. Most squeeing over canon h/c is when the 'hurtee' is male. There has to be a sexualized aspect to it. Is it that a man with issues/pain is actually more complicated and interesting? Is it some sort of nurturing instinct which wants someone helpless so he could be helped (presumably by a character the reader/viewer either identifies and projects onto, or just likes). Is it a mere distancing because female pain is too 'close to home' for a female audience member, or (provided, of course, the audience member is not only female but straight) the fact that men are someone the viewer/reader attracted to, so there is something attractive about bloody cheekbones or weepy eyes, while with a female character there is no veneer of attractiveness to viewer over it, so there is just pain.

Does making a strong man helpless makes him more 'equal' and 'approacheable.' Does it just show that someone is really necessary to him, to help him heal, thus helping the view of love as crucial to life. What?

I am honestly curious about this. (And for once, don't mind if metafandom comes over :P)

There is also side question. if any of people replying are lesbian and/or bisexual women. Is there an interest in creating h/c scenarios with women as subjects?

Btw, this quote of lesbiassparrow on the topic (with which I utterly agree btw) is made of awesomeness: "I am deeply disturbed by how much better I feel that 'Time of Dog and Wolf' got once they started beating the living daylights out of the hero at least once an episode. I refuse to interrogate what this says about me but I am sure it is nothing good. (And the hero getting beat up is not a spoiler because I feel this is the sort of show where they will whack the living daylights out of him on regular basis because they can.)"

Comments

[calixa.livejournal.com]

I find myself wondering if it is a matter of power and dominance. There is a huge fanbase for 'bad boy' characters who, in some form or other, get redeemed by the love of a good female (self-insertion goes here). To me this signifies a kind of desire to change or mold someone into what you want them to be, and that in itself is a desire for power.

Does making a strong man helpless makes him more 'equal' and 'approacheable.'

If we go along the same lines, to be able to comfort someone is also to be in a position of power, where you are the person helping and not the person who needs help. It's not 'equal', but rather 'victim'. So we get to play the hero.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It's not 'equal', but rather 'victim'. So we get to play the hero.


That's a really interesting observation but most men subject to h/c are usually very competent and don't end up permanently needing care. So to me maybe it's more of an 'even footing' with the usually superior person? But yes, a bit of heroism complex too. 'See, see how necessary and capable I am.'

[lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com]

When I want to be hyper intellectual about it and stop people mocking me I start mumbling on that the roots of Western* storytelling are about the aesthetic gorgeousness of violence and male agony. Starting with Gilgamesh and the Iliad we've been conditioned as cultures to fixate on the male body in pain (either emotional or physical) as something charged and fascinating. Of course, traditional female pain (childbirth and its related agonies) are not seen that way but that's because they didn't get to set the terms of the discussion.

Of course, there is also the fact that h/c allows another person to nurture someone that they wouldn't normally. It works well with either het or slash in fandom because it enables the other party to have an essential function that they might otherwise be lacking.

*I don't know enough about Asian and other cultures to speak about their earliest stories so I'm leaving them out here.

PS

[lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com]

And I should qualify that by saying that it's all about the gorgeousness of the youth male body. There's a Greek poem of the 6th century about how beautiful young men are fighting and dying but how ugly it is for an old man to lie fallen and exposed.

[plazmah.livejournal.com]

Is it a mere distancing because female pain is too 'close to home' for a female audience member

That's my personal explanation for why you don't see many females as the 'hurtee' in h/c fic. Myself, I'm not a hardcore h/c fan or anything. But I do sort of see the appeal of it, when the male hurtee is battered in the name of something he believes in... especially the honour/pride/safety/etc. of his object of attraction. That a man would allow himself to suffer physical damage for the sake of protecting someone he loves, that's quite hot.

I have no idea how much sense I'm making. ;)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

This makes perfect sense!

That a man would allow himself to suffer physical damage for the sake of protecting someone he loves, that's quite hot.


And that leads to the whole 'it's only good h/c' if the kind of hurt is approved. To fight evil or protect a loved one? Good. Slightly mistreated by crazies? Also not bad. Poed because of water bill? You are out.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I think aside from that it's also a very practical plot device to get two characters to spend time with each other and give them reason to touch physically when they normally wouldn't, for example because they didn't know each other before (or not that well), but also when they were broken up and she pretends she is just doing it because it's the moral thing to do and then gets sucked back in.

In slash I have really seen both types:

- Strong(er) independent character gets hurt and gets taught by other characters to learn to accept his weakness. Usually with lots of trying to storm out of bed while still injured and the second character trying to get him to lay down again.
- Normally stoic and reserved character is forced to show is true feelings when the second character is injured and the stoic character has to heal/nurse/comfort them.

I actually to remember female hurtees from romance novel (the eternal broken ankle which is loving bandaged by the hero), but mostly to fill the "Finding a reason for characters to spend time together/touch" reasoning.

I do think that one purpose of hurt (especially in slash as far as I have seen, not a big fan of it BTW), is to make a character more fragile. And maybe women aren't hurtees because they are often considered to be already more fragile.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I think aside from that it's also a very practical plot device to get two characters to spend time with each other and give them reason to touch physically when they normally wouldn't,

I suppose this is even stronger for uc pairings. But yes, I've often seen it as a 'trigger' event which brings a couple closer. Which is so interesting to me...

[(Anonymous)]

I think aside from that it's also a very practical plot device to get two characters to spend time with each other and give them reason to touch physically when they normally wouldn't, for example because they didn't know each other before (or not that well), but also when they were broken up and she pretends she is just doing it because it's the moral thing to do and then gets sucked back in.

Or because - in cases of "opposites attract" - they are adversaries that wouldn't speak with each other at all unless some outside agency forced them together and give them time to work through their difference without violence and realise the attraction.

See for example many plot devices in PotC for "Sparrington" (=Jack Sparrow/James Norrington). Here we have the upright Navy Commodore on the one side, and the pirate he is obliged to hunt and bring to justice on the other.

What to do? Have one of them hurt/sick/shipwrecked and the other forced or feeling obliged to take care of him.

Candia - another BIG Dunnett fan, although I don't really see the connection to h/c: of course, Lymond and Nicholas get battered pretty much throughout their respective series, but mostly the tragedy is that they have no one to comfort them.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

not going to get meta-y on it, but:

it's a combination of maternal instinct and the redemption theme. they both put the female in the position of the fix or rescuer. it's like the woobie reaction...basically the maternal instinct to want to take care of the character mixed with the story situation.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

That is very interesting, and true. And since most preferred victims of h/c are confident, competent males, normally you (or other characters) wouldn't get a chance to be 'useful' in the nurturing sense. To bring it back to Dog/Wolf which is what got me thinking about this, Jun Ki's character is extremely reserved, buttoned down, competent. There is really no weakness or flaw percieved at first, so there is nothing for the heroine to nurture or to feel necessary with. But then of course you find out how truly FUBAR he is and by the end of ep 4, she is in the position of comforter, and his steady place and etc etc (also, and imo, significantly, he lost his suits together with his reserved demeanor). So now is it not only a good way to get underneath a mask of a strong alpha male, it's a 'have your cake and eat it too.' You have someone strong and competent who can protect you and take care of himself, but you also have someone who needs your help desperately.

[egelantier.livejournal.com]

this is one of these strange lj-coincidences that amaze me, since I was thinking about writing 'what is it for you in h/c' post yesterday night. and you got here earlier, wow. thanks for writing it!

I was thinking about your question and discovered an interesting thing. in my love for h/c I always identify and identified with victim, not attacked; and for me this is about hurtee automatically gaining more 'worth' when he/she is hurt: it's something about getting some attention, maybe, you know, this part when he/she is saved/found and 'comfort' part begin and everybody is 'God, what horrors he/she had to endure, so brave!' etc. bonus point if he/she got in trouble saving/protecting/self-sacrificing for sake of someone. double bonus-point for if saved/protected/sacrificed for person must witness the hurting and go all guilty.

okay, all of this, as your friend says, is vaguely disturbing, but not so much since fantasy is fantasy after all. what's interesting for me is: when I was fantasizing in my childhood, I put my obviously self-inserted marysueish heroine into hurtee position easily and with great pleasure. but now, when I look over my h/c recs, I see that I never read a fic where hurtee was a woman; and if, say, in farscape John's h/c scenes made me one very happy fangirl, I've barely been able to watch series about Aeryn spent in scarran's captivity: not a trace of 'dirty little shivers' (c), just unease and great discomfort. perhaps it really strikes to close to home for comfort.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

what's interesting for me is: when I was fantasizing in my childhood, I put my obviously self-inserted marysueish heroine into hurtee position easily and with great pleasure. but now, when I look over my h/c recs, I see that I never read a fic where hurtee was a woman; and if, say, in farscape John's h/c scenes made me one very happy fangirl, I've barely been able to watch series about Aeryn spent in scarran's captivity:

It's interesting, because for me I always loved the 'comforter' role even when a kid, more. And definitely true about Farscape. I love Crichton angst scenes but can't bear Aeryn's.

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

*here from metafandom's delicious links* Like egelantir, I almost always identify at least as much (if not more so) with the "hurtee" in h/c. And I find that in most fandoms, there are specific characters I prefer to see get the snot beaten out of them (physically or emotionally). All h/c is good, but h/c with the Designated Fannish Victim is even better (in fact, fic where somebody else gets whumped and my designated victim is present but untouched often makes me feel vaguely cheated. Ex: "Why are you beating up on Sam and not Dean? WTF is wrong with you? "). DFV is usually my OTC, and generally the character I identify with the most strongly, but not always.

I know there are many fans (including, I think, most smarm fans) for whom the "comfort" in h/c is the most important part of the equation, either because they want to see a character put in the position of nurturer and vicariously do the comforting, or because they want to put themselves in the position of the one being comforted, but for me, the "hurt" has always been just as important, if not more so. Especially physical hurt. Double bonus points for physical hurt accompanied by emotional anguish.

egelantir's suggestion that part of the appeal might lie with "hurtee automatically gaining more 'worth' when he/she is hurt" also rings true to a certain degree. There's a definite strain of thought in Western culture (at the very least--I can't speak for other cultures) that suffering is noble, redemptive, etc. (witness the Catholic church's traditional enshrinement of martyrs, and all those Renaissance paintings of young, hot St. Sebastien all stuck through with arrows).

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

At some point, I think all small children have the fantasy of 'hurtee gains status' (perhaps as a reflection of their general helplessness in a grownup world). Sort of 'huh, and I will die and you will then feel sorry!' Judging by ff.net and the number of lnegthily and heroically dying sues on it, often they keep that fantasy when they get older, too.

But it's interesting that for me, at some point it changed like it did for egelantier. Now, female suffering just makes me uncomfortable and unhappy. I wonder how it shifted.

All h/c is good, but h/c with the Designated Fannish Victim is even better (in fact, fic where somebody else gets whumped and my designated victim is present but untouched often makes me feel vaguely cheated

Oh, I definitely get that (and also with Dean v. Sam :P) I wonder why that is. Theoretically, if you read about your favorite character being a comforter in the scenario, he/she is being good, supporting, noble, but that doesn't interest me at all.

Maybe it's the notion of strength under pressure? And that is why people in fandom want to see a strong character broken, not some sort of wimp. Sort of 'character X is so amazing, almost nothing could break him, and this almost did, so this must have been super horrible but now he will recover anyway.' But then, like you, I don't like skipping to the comfort part (much as I enjoy it), I need the hurt part too. (Btw, I don't really have one organized point, I am thinking this out loud).

[ulkis.livejournal.com]

All the reasons you list here are big reasons why I enjoy h/c, and I agree with a lot of the reasonings people list here re: h/c more appealing with men being the hurt one instead of the woman. I can think of one big h/c scenario in which the gender was reversed though: Micheal and Nikita from LFN, if you've ever seen that. Michael was so undemonstrative, even when he was hurt, so I loved it when Nikita was in danger and he couldn't help show his fear just a tiny bit. I think the second season premiere, where he beats up Nikita, and then caresses her, is one of my favorite h/c moments with a woman. Michael pretty much only suffered when Nikita did. :) (This does not mean I didn't like it when Michael got beat up and such as well, heh.)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

The Michael/Nikita thing (never seen the show but maybe should) is very interesting and makes sense. To me it seems like the focus is less on the hurt to the woman and (vicariou) hurt to the man who can get to be both h and c :)

[black-samvara.livejournal.com]

I would like to offer soft core romance novels as emotional and physical h/c - with the woman often being the hurt one.

Yes and No

[towerofindigo.livejournal.com]

One of the things I ask female writers of slash as soon as possible if I can, because I see the prevalence of hurt/comfort or bdsm, and the strange illusion someone can truly fall in love with a tormentor (yes, don't quote me of the situation were swede captives protected and spoke for their captor, that a psychological condition not normal), is why they so often present this or write about it.

Psychological speaking and sociological, there is a basis for it, as the majority are women writing for other women about male/male situations of this type. It's said other places, in other venues, psych stuff and not, that this occurs because these writers feel more comfortable writing about a man being raped, a man being tortured, abused, etc. etc. than about a woman, and naturally they present another man as doing so. It takes the guilt off themselves as a gender in writing stories if they had been about torturing about other women, i.e. they can feel more comfortable doing it. Also, it is said that writers of such, especially women, can use words to get back at the men who have abused them throughout their own lives, etc. They can have another man taking the torture, one they can empathize with, and not reject auto if they were female ("she must have done something to deserve it!") These are using fictional characters to work through their own pains, hang-ups, hatreds, etc. I do not think it has anything to do with nurturing besides the fact that someone who should have been hurt has now been hurt, and now you will see to them, and in doing so remind they how what they and their sex have done caused this and now they should be better and more sympathetic to those who are physically weaker who couldnt protect themselves after this point.

I believe it is distancing to see someone else in pain and being abused, so that they can sympathize with it, and not have the biased view I just stated above in quotes. While myself, as a bisexual male who grew up both traumatized and sexually abused by males and females as a child and into adulthood I find any such writings distasteful, especially those who seem to write just to write of violence or of vendetta. Some I've talked to write it for other reasons, and believe me, I asked and asked, and cross referenced and asked again because I want to know how anyone can write describing abuse in detail or think it is alright.


I think the idea of writing "Does making a strong man helpless makes him more 'equal' and 'approacheable.' Does it just show that someone is really necessary to him, to help him heal, thus helping the view of love as crucial to life." Is just an excuse to write of humbling someone who has hurt you, or hurt someone you know. Its a symbol. But in saying that, I do not believe it is a bad symbol or bad excuse. It's better to write it than go out and kidnap and abuse a man just for one's feelings, correct? So I am disturbed by, but accept such writing for what they are. And this speaking from someone who was actually held and locked in someone's home, threatened then subjected to violence if they did not have sex with the person yelling in their face, and yet survived. I think if most of the authors had been subjected to such themselves, they would not write about, one simply cannot on that level. But ones who might have been may simply enjoy writing of someone else being so hurt. And they can feel comfortable them writing someone to comfort them, and inadvertently, for their own mind and heart, themselves. It's a very mental thing.

Re: Yes and No (and hi, here via metafandom)

[logophilos.livejournal.com]

I think you raise a good point. It's not just the 'Mr Rochester' syndrome of making a man helpless and thus less threatening, there is also an element of fantasing revenge - we get to play both attacker and victim, and explore feelings in a safe way. Unfortunately, female fantasies in this way do often ignore the reality of male victims, and and serious exploration of the issues of abuse using male figures needs to be as sensitive and respectful as we would be if the victim were female.

[hyrnetanga.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom

For me, I think h/c tends to be about seeing these strong, independant, heroic types having to rely on someone else, and having to admit to themselves that they need to. Their reactions to this situation and those of the characters caring for them continue to fascinate me (and also at times to amuse me), I think partly because I am a very independant person and I suspect that is how I would also react.
While most of the h/c I have read is male-centric, that may just be because my fandom (LOTR) is a little short on major female characters. I have also read some h/c with a strong, independant, heroic woman as the hurtee and greatly enjoyed it.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I have also read some h/c with a strong, independant, heroic woman as the hurtee and greatly enjoyed it.

Interesting. Which fandom?

I keep trying to wreck my brain whether I have ever read any Scully story that was like that. But I keep getting the impression that most female stories I read really focused more on the overcoming rather than the comfort level.

here via metafandom

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I have much to add, but I wanted to let you know I greatly enjoyed reading your post and the discussion following. I don't like h/c or woobie-hood and its presence has disturbed me since I started reading fanfic a few years ago. I also feel sort of weirdly left out, like somehow I *should* like it but just don't get it. So I enjoy reading about it to try and figure out just what it is that I'm not getting.

It was interesting to read that some women don't like h/c that involved hurt women, but enjoy male hurt. I guess that the way they feel about seeing women hurt is the way I feel about seeing both women and men hurt. I can't watch a show like 24 for just that reason.

Also, what thelana said about emotion made sense, but I would even take it further. I would say that h/c is an *easy* way of ratcheting up the emotions, which leaves me feeling manipulated and unsatisfied. I prefer fiction that feels more emotionally true and realistic.

As towerofindigo pointed out, in real life if a person went through this sort of h/c situation, it would leave him emotionally scarred for life. In fanfic, he is healed and happily in love by the end of the story (usually). Not that canon is any more realistic in most cases! If John Sheppard on SGA were a real-life soldier he would be suffering from a massive case of PTSD. But who wants a tv show in which characters are suffering from PTSD? Not me! So I don't mind it on tv.

But in fanfic, the writer often goes into prolonged and graphic detail that a tv show can skip over, and that's what I don't like. It's that focus, that fetishization of pain, that makes me squirm. And not in a good way.

Re: here via metafandom

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I would say that h/c is an *easy* way of ratcheting up the emotions, which leaves me feeling manipulated and unsatisfied.

Word.

And this actually reminds me how fiction that is clearly motivated by dislike for the character squicks me beyond belief. Fiction of the type "I hate Lana Land and this is the fic where she dies a gruesome death" or "This is the fact where everybody finds out that Ginny is a whore and shuns her". Or even fics where it is implied that a character needs to be punished. Let's say I love Spike and I'm angry at Buffy for being mean to him. So I write fic where she "gets hers" and becomes a more humble person who learns to be nicer to the people around them.

But, I would actually consider that a seperate category from hurt/comfort since it is basically hurt without comfort. I think in comparison h/c is definitely often motivated by love of the character (though I think "Character needs to be humbled/better themselves" can bleed into h/c fic) and that it is basically designed as a setup for a character to be coddled, loved and appreciated.

And there are some cases, even cases that are very low on graphic hurt that squick me out if they feel too personal, too much like fishing for compliments. Let's say I'm an author. I'm home with the flu. I'm grumpy because I have fever, I'm annoyed that I can't get out of bed and that nobody is paying attention to me. So I write a fic where my favorite character is sick the flu and grumpy and eventually their OTP partner comes and cuddles them and gives them chicken soup and they have magically healing happy sex.

What is this more? Punishment for the character because I suffer and I want other people (in this characters) share my suffering? Or wish fulfillment and identification because actually I wish that there was somebody serving ME chicken soup and so I bestow the care that I want on the character I favor?

But yeah, basically any fic where the author's personal motivations (whether it is character hate or being pissed at real life things) come out too much, rather than the fic feeling like it is genuinely about the issues of the characters in question, is likely going to squick me or at least not going to be liked by me.

Here Via Metafandom

[dknightshade.livejournal.com]

Thought I'd jump in because no one else has said it yet, but I'm a straight woman and I prefer h/c where the woman is the hurtee. It's uncomfortable close to romance novels (of which I'm not a fan), but with a lot of female characters who are strong, it's an excuse to make them open up emotionally. I don't really like to explicit whumping (of either gender), but for me it's a kink to see the men being more nuturing than they normally would be and taking care of a woman they care about. To me that's the payoff - the nurturing of the comfort part.

*shrugs*

Four Words: Met A Fan Dom

[iamrighthere.livejournal.com]

Interesting discussion. I'm an EMT and the other day I was taking a very adorable 32-year-old fellow to the hospital because he had a screamingly painful kidney stone.

Nothing separates a man from his bullshit like a lot of pain. He wasn't trying to be strong and brave and nonchalant; he was just trying to get through a 10-minute ambulance ride without passing out. And he cried a lot.

Good H/C to me--because it usually has a hurting male--involves bringing down the male/bullshit walls, exposing what a character's really made of, or, at least, what the writer thinks is buried down in there.

[wingstar.livejournal.com]

Oh, this is an interesting subject. I think most of the opinions offered here have merit, in different degrees depending on the story. For example, something I've noticed when I'm reading Supernatural h/c - sometimes I'll read a story with Dean-whumpage because he really is a woobie, and sometimes I'll read it because I like seeing Sam in the caregiver position. I mean, it's Dean's who's really a natural at it, so it's interesting to me to watch Sam struggle somewhat (but ultimately pull through) at having to be on the other end of that relationship. =)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I might have different reasons for reading the same story, depending on what I'm looking for at the time!

[febobe.livejournal.com]

Got here through Middle-Earth News. . .thanks for a very insightful and interesting discussion!

As the frequently-dubbed "queen of Frodo h/c," I feel compelled to toss in a few thoughts for mix-n-stir just to add to what others have said. For my part, I think I relate to both roles: I have had significant medical problems for most of my life, and I have worked in the health care field (though in an informative rather than a direct caregiver role, though I consider myself a frustrated caregiver. . .I considered both medical and nursing school, even later on less traditional "healing" routes such as massage therapy, but my body is having none of that, it seems). For my part, I think I (a) want to distance myself from the experience of illness while still portraying it in fiction, and (b) want to "experience" the role(s) of caregiver that I cannot experience IRL.

As to why I'm so particular why Frodo within the LOTR fandom. . .well, I write h/c stuff (including with female characters, incidentally, which is difficult b/c it eliminates some of the distancing element) in my original fiction, but in fanfic I'm partial to certain characters, and I suppose the reason is simply that those characters are my favourites! In Frodo's case, there are already several nice h/c openings in the plot, so it really is possible to write some nice canon-based h/c as well as the fun AU stuff, which goes more out on a limb. I love it all, though. But I'm such a Frodo-gal within LOTR. (Sorry, folks.)

I don't know how much light this casts on why others enjoy creating or reading it, but it certainly explains to me why I do, I think.

Happy reading,
Febobe