Musings on Lymond
Jun. 1st, 2007 11:30 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
dangermousieYeah, I am reading Game of Kings in an insane, obsessive fashion.
But this is only loosely connected to GoK, though it is Lymond-centric. In looking back, I realize that this was the first time I read a set of novels where the protagonist was bisexual (I have no idea if he was bi by inclination as the only person he loves during the course of the books is Philippa and she is a woman, but he is certainly bi by conduct, voluntary and involuntary, and doesn’t find the concept insupportable).
And that led me to think of Lymond’s sexual issues because he has So. Many.
He knows he is gorgeous and he uses it, like anything else in his arsenal, if necessary. Which would be OK if it didn’t bother him, but it only makes him feel worse.
I think it really has to do with the deep sense he has of his own worthlessness. As if he is damaged, no good, so it doesn’t matter what further horrible stuff happens to him. I wonder if it’s tied to his experience with his family and the crazy childhood (with the ‘father’ who hated him, gnawing dread he is the product of incest), with his feelings of guilt about Eloise’s death (and that feeling probably grows with every death he, however indirectly, causes), and with his time at the galleys (because seriously, while the books never address it explicitly, but a beautiful 16 year old at the galleys is complete toast).
In fact, every experience he has up until with Philippa at the end of Checkmate *dies* is some sort of re-enforcement of that worthlessness, of his own view of himself as a whore.
Even the ones that didn’t start out that way end up so: he was infatuated with Margaret Lennox at 16 and she ruined his life forever. He made out with Oonagh and there was mutual admiration there, if not love, and she winds up skinned alive and stuffed with straw because of him.
Even sleeping with people at the French court for political reasons and with hookers just because adds to that sense for him (I keep thinking of the scene in RC? CM? When he hires a woman of the night and what a totally painful encounter it is).
And then of course there all the times where he has to be a literal whore which cannot possibly be good for him at all. I am thinking of the two worst ones actually: Aga Morat in Pawn and Guzel in Castle. And both of them really stem from his desire to protect an innocent because he, Lymond, can take it, but the other person cannot. The bit in Pawn with Aga really breaks me because of that.
Aga Morat captures Lymond’s party and Lymond can tell that Aga wants Jerrott (OMG, Jerrott, I love you, awesome secondary character, you!) And Lymond knows Jerrott wouldn’t be able to take it (best case scenario, he gets killed by the Aga) so he offers himself instead, volunteer. The thing that gets me there so much is Lymond’s bedrock, matter-of-fact assumption (not stated ever but very inferred) that it’s fine because he, Lymond, is so tainted anyway, it doesn’t really matter, that of course it’s not a sacrifice, what’s one more psychically scarring act or less. Aga needs a boytoy? Lymond will be his boytoy. It’s the ‘been there done that’ vibe that freaks me out. As if there is nothing worth saving in himself, no value except any value that can be inferred from protecting others.
And of course Jerrott finds out about Aga-Lymond and doesn’t get it, and is totally disgusted and in some bitter way, Lymond actually enjoys the fact. (Of course, there is the fact that the relationship with Aga is a creepy s&m one, but that’s a separate issue).
Actually, I do think Pawn is the hardest of the books for me to read because it is the one which destroys Lymond the most (RC and Checkmate are all about rebuilding him) and the Aga episode is actually a very minor part of it. The thing that really gets me is the whole story with Khaireddin, Lymond’s son, Gabriel’s perfect revenge. The scenes of Lymond (and now that I am rereading them in such proximity, I realize that Lymond likes kids as early as Game of Kings, when he plays with little Mary) and his child are just horrifying. In a way, Lymond is both the best and worst person to deal with Khaireddin’s situation. (K was sold on purpose and is now a child whore even though he is what, less than 5?) That brings all of Lymond’s demons out but he also has infinite patience, and the scenes of him slowly winning the child’s trust and the infinite patience and gentleness kill me, especially since I know how much it must simply murder Lymond. And of course it’s all for nothing because at the final chess game, Khaireddin dies, and it’s Lymond’s choice that makes it so.
That game is one scene I’ve never reread btw. Lymond begging to be killed instead of one of the children, Lymond knowing that either Khaireddin or Kuzum (who is most likely Gabriel’s child) would have to die or everyone in his party is toast, and being in charge of picking who, and picking Khaireddin because Kuzum has more of a chance at a normal life (and because I think he cannot go by blood only as it would damn him).
And then taking his sword and finally having the right to kill Gabriel, after two books, but letting go of the sword and basically doing it with his bare hands and then his friends tell him he has (Gabriel’s) blood on him and Lymond vacantly tells them ‘but he didn’t reach me’ and they realize that he has completely forgotten about Gabriel and is only thinking of Khaireddin running to him.
Oh Man.
And then he marries Philippa to save her reputation, because he is dying anyway or can get an annulment, and I love that Philippa agrees only if he promises not to kill himself (and yeah, he can never not protect someone close to him, so he needs to marry her so he has no choice).
And I love that he asks her “Philippa, release me from my promise’ that horrible wedding night (where he finally falls asleep and all he has are horrible nightmares and she stays up the whole night and that is when she ultimately grows up) and she denies and he goes silent.
Which brings me to Guzel. I think of all the ‘being with someone’ that Lymond had to do, this had to be the most damaging. Because Guzel is the one responsible for Khaireddin’s death, and also at that point Lymond is only functioning because he is completely detached: he wants no physical, mental, emotional contact with anyone, ever (of course, having such a capacity for love he has to lavish it somewhere, even if it’s a stupid hunting bird) and yet Lymond ‘owes’ her and Guzel gets him to come to her by once again, a play on an innocent (and horribly cruel it is, as Guzel chooses as a lover a young guy who looks like Lymond’s kid could have if he was older). So of course Lymond offers himself instead.
Creeeeeeepy.
I always thought it was totally telling that Lymond knew exactly what to do and how to take care of Philippa in Checkmate after he found her raped in Leonard Bailey’s house. (Ugh, another scene that kills me, because he loves her so much and vice versa and she did it for him and…)
Anyway, I have no idea where I am going with this (if anywhere) but I do find it an interesting parallel with Philippa and Lymond because I think that is one of many ways she now knows how it is in his shoes. Because she offered herself (a virgin) to Bailey (a horrible, awful, disgusting person) in exchange for Lymond’s paternity documents which really is a very Lymondish thing: the worst thing is to be a ‘willing’ partner in your own debasement and degradation.
Anyhoo, the end of Checkmate is one of the most beautiful things ever. And I cried like an idiot. And there is finally forgiveness and joy and peace.
But this is only loosely connected to GoK, though it is Lymond-centric. In looking back, I realize that this was the first time I read a set of novels where the protagonist was bisexual (I have no idea if he was bi by inclination as the only person he loves during the course of the books is Philippa and she is a woman, but he is certainly bi by conduct, voluntary and involuntary, and doesn’t find the concept insupportable).
And that led me to think of Lymond’s sexual issues because he has So. Many.
He knows he is gorgeous and he uses it, like anything else in his arsenal, if necessary. Which would be OK if it didn’t bother him, but it only makes him feel worse.
I think it really has to do with the deep sense he has of his own worthlessness. As if he is damaged, no good, so it doesn’t matter what further horrible stuff happens to him. I wonder if it’s tied to his experience with his family and the crazy childhood (with the ‘father’ who hated him, gnawing dread he is the product of incest), with his feelings of guilt about Eloise’s death (and that feeling probably grows with every death he, however indirectly, causes), and with his time at the galleys (because seriously, while the books never address it explicitly, but a beautiful 16 year old at the galleys is complete toast).
In fact, every experience he has up until with Philippa at the end of Checkmate *dies* is some sort of re-enforcement of that worthlessness, of his own view of himself as a whore.
Even the ones that didn’t start out that way end up so: he was infatuated with Margaret Lennox at 16 and she ruined his life forever. He made out with Oonagh and there was mutual admiration there, if not love, and she winds up skinned alive and stuffed with straw because of him.
Even sleeping with people at the French court for political reasons and with hookers just because adds to that sense for him (I keep thinking of the scene in RC? CM? When he hires a woman of the night and what a totally painful encounter it is).
And then of course there all the times where he has to be a literal whore which cannot possibly be good for him at all. I am thinking of the two worst ones actually: Aga Morat in Pawn and Guzel in Castle. And both of them really stem from his desire to protect an innocent because he, Lymond, can take it, but the other person cannot. The bit in Pawn with Aga really breaks me because of that.
Aga Morat captures Lymond’s party and Lymond can tell that Aga wants Jerrott (OMG, Jerrott, I love you, awesome secondary character, you!) And Lymond knows Jerrott wouldn’t be able to take it (best case scenario, he gets killed by the Aga) so he offers himself instead, volunteer. The thing that gets me there so much is Lymond’s bedrock, matter-of-fact assumption (not stated ever but very inferred) that it’s fine because he, Lymond, is so tainted anyway, it doesn’t really matter, that of course it’s not a sacrifice, what’s one more psychically scarring act or less. Aga needs a boytoy? Lymond will be his boytoy. It’s the ‘been there done that’ vibe that freaks me out. As if there is nothing worth saving in himself, no value except any value that can be inferred from protecting others.
And of course Jerrott finds out about Aga-Lymond and doesn’t get it, and is totally disgusted and in some bitter way, Lymond actually enjoys the fact. (Of course, there is the fact that the relationship with Aga is a creepy s&m one, but that’s a separate issue).
Actually, I do think Pawn is the hardest of the books for me to read because it is the one which destroys Lymond the most (RC and Checkmate are all about rebuilding him) and the Aga episode is actually a very minor part of it. The thing that really gets me is the whole story with Khaireddin, Lymond’s son, Gabriel’s perfect revenge. The scenes of Lymond (and now that I am rereading them in such proximity, I realize that Lymond likes kids as early as Game of Kings, when he plays with little Mary) and his child are just horrifying. In a way, Lymond is both the best and worst person to deal with Khaireddin’s situation. (K was sold on purpose and is now a child whore even though he is what, less than 5?) That brings all of Lymond’s demons out but he also has infinite patience, and the scenes of him slowly winning the child’s trust and the infinite patience and gentleness kill me, especially since I know how much it must simply murder Lymond. And of course it’s all for nothing because at the final chess game, Khaireddin dies, and it’s Lymond’s choice that makes it so.
That game is one scene I’ve never reread btw. Lymond begging to be killed instead of one of the children, Lymond knowing that either Khaireddin or Kuzum (who is most likely Gabriel’s child) would have to die or everyone in his party is toast, and being in charge of picking who, and picking Khaireddin because Kuzum has more of a chance at a normal life (and because I think he cannot go by blood only as it would damn him).
And then taking his sword and finally having the right to kill Gabriel, after two books, but letting go of the sword and basically doing it with his bare hands and then his friends tell him he has (Gabriel’s) blood on him and Lymond vacantly tells them ‘but he didn’t reach me’ and they realize that he has completely forgotten about Gabriel and is only thinking of Khaireddin running to him.
Oh Man.
And then he marries Philippa to save her reputation, because he is dying anyway or can get an annulment, and I love that Philippa agrees only if he promises not to kill himself (and yeah, he can never not protect someone close to him, so he needs to marry her so he has no choice).
And I love that he asks her “Philippa, release me from my promise’ that horrible wedding night (where he finally falls asleep and all he has are horrible nightmares and she stays up the whole night and that is when she ultimately grows up) and she denies and he goes silent.
Which brings me to Guzel. I think of all the ‘being with someone’ that Lymond had to do, this had to be the most damaging. Because Guzel is the one responsible for Khaireddin’s death, and also at that point Lymond is only functioning because he is completely detached: he wants no physical, mental, emotional contact with anyone, ever (of course, having such a capacity for love he has to lavish it somewhere, even if it’s a stupid hunting bird) and yet Lymond ‘owes’ her and Guzel gets him to come to her by once again, a play on an innocent (and horribly cruel it is, as Guzel chooses as a lover a young guy who looks like Lymond’s kid could have if he was older). So of course Lymond offers himself instead.
Creeeeeeepy.
I always thought it was totally telling that Lymond knew exactly what to do and how to take care of Philippa in Checkmate after he found her raped in Leonard Bailey’s house. (Ugh, another scene that kills me, because he loves her so much and vice versa and she did it for him and…)
Anyway, I have no idea where I am going with this (if anywhere) but I do find it an interesting parallel with Philippa and Lymond because I think that is one of many ways she now knows how it is in his shoes. Because she offered herself (a virgin) to Bailey (a horrible, awful, disgusting person) in exchange for Lymond’s paternity documents which really is a very Lymondish thing: the worst thing is to be a ‘willing’ partner in your own debasement and degradation.
Anyhoo, the end of Checkmate is one of the most beautiful things ever. And I cried like an idiot. And there is finally forgiveness and joy and peace.
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no subject
Date: 2007-06-01 03:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-01 03:39 pm (UTC)I've started my reread (am about 150 pages into GoK) and in some ways I can't even read too much of it at a stretch because it's too rich, if it makes any sense.
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Date: 2007-06-01 03:44 pm (UTC)It makes perfect sense. Her story, characters and language are very dense, so it does require some breathing space to let everything live and develop.
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Date: 2007-06-01 03:46 pm (UTC)she winds up skinned alive
I always thought Oonagh had died before being skinned – some small consolation, as I always really, really liked Oonagh and the scene where she and Lymond sleep together in Queen’s Play is just so sexy. (The usual Ottoman practice with defeated enemies (there’s a church in Venice where they have the skin of Marcantonio Bragadin, the Venetian commander at Famagusta in Cyprus, who was defeated by the Ottomans and then killed and, err, stuffed like Oonagh. Some Venetian merchants stole the grisly “trophy” and brought it back to rest in Venice. The point is that they usually did the skinning after the killing.)
And lastly, you know, there is a character I think you would LOVE in the G.R.R. Martin books (even though you will probably have to read through the first two entirely before you come to love him :P)
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Date: 2007-06-01 03:57 pm (UTC)In fact, that is the big difference beweeen him and Richard. Richard never learns and keeps making the same mistakes in judgment (of Lymond) over and over again. He gets proven wrong and takes it to heart but then next time, he makes the same mistake again. Not Jerrott. Jerrott's epiphanies stick.
I find it so ironic that in a way he is the one responsible for Marthe's death as he is the one who let Austin shoot because he thought Lymond needed release. I do hope he finds peace eventually.
Re: stuffing. Good to know. I do love the scene between hhim and Oonagh in QP (I also don't get Oonagh dislike. She is too cold and fun-less for me to really fall for her but I like her will and intelligence).
What's the name of the GRRM character? Is that the one you like, Jamie?
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Date: 2007-06-01 04:04 pm (UTC)I like Oonagh’s intelligence too and I just feel really, really bad for her … And obviously for her poor baby, OMG. I haven’t read PiF in years, and like you, I’m not really sure I CAN again. Even though I think it’s some of the most powerful stuff Dunnett ever wrote.
What's the name of the GRRM character? Is that the one you like, Jamie?
Yup – Jaime. The first time you really meet him, he does something so awful that lots of readers cannot forgive him for it after four books. And he’s a knight who broke all his knightly vows seventeen years before the main action starts, because it was the only way for him to save thousands of people’s lives – but he’s too proud to explain WHY he did what he did and basically is just totally snarky about everything, and kind of gives up on ever being honorable again, until something awful happens to him and in that awfulness, he finds himself again (while continuing to be very snarky!) The way I feel about Jaime is the way you feel about Lymond :P
no subject
Date: 2007-06-01 04:13 pm (UTC)Oh, I am equally shallow too. Plus he really deserves happiness. If he found love with a normal girl once (the one who died of whatever disease), then he can hopefully do so again in a few years.
Richard is very 'family:' he loves Lymond but I don't think he likes him or gets him at all. At his core, they are too different. Jerrott, for all his being grounded, is a lot more 'romantic' in his notions and therefore more able to be imaginative (I am not sure if that sentence makes as much sense on the page as it does in my head).
I haven’t read PiF in years, and like you, I’m not really sure I CAN again. Even though I think it’s some of the most powerful stuff Dunnett ever wrote.
It's such beautiful, polished prose but if just thinking of it makes me a wreck, I think reading it will total me. And I love that Dunnett followed through with the consequences: there was no last minute rescue, no exit from the choice Lymond made.
I just hope Lymond and Philippa have ten really healthy children and nothing horrid ever happens to them, not even a stubbed toe. I found it so wonderful at the end of CM when Lymond is quoting random things to Philippa in bed at the end of CM and he tells her (paraphrase) 'Come let us beget all manner of living things' because I think that is so hopeful and indicative of healing.
Re: Jaime. Sounds VERY promising. Do I have to read the first two books first or can I skip to the Jaime one?
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Date: 2007-06-01 04:20 pm (UTC)Yeah, it's harsh but it is RIGHT. And Kuzum is such a great little kid - despite his horrible parents. It's so LYMOND-Y to disregard that he's the child of Gabriel and Joleta and just know that he's a very nice little boy whom Philippa has come to love.
I just hope Lymond and Philippa have ten really healthy children and nothing horrid ever happens to them, not even a stubbed toe.
heh! I hope so too. Although of course, knowing our history, all manner of turmoil is going engulf Scotland AND England in the coming years. But no matter, the Lymonds will be unharmed ...
Jaime is kind of omnipresent through the first two books, even though he isn't a POV character until the third one - I think Martin has written one of the best and most believable character "turnarounds" I've ever read in fiction, and to get the full impact of it, you really have to know just how horrible Jaime CAN be... So, I dunno, it's hard for me to tell you to skip the first two. And you should DEFINITELY read this one scene from the second book, which is when I fell in love with Jaime.
If you don't mind spoilers, I have a jaime-centric description of the first two books here ...
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Date: 2007-06-01 04:47 pm (UTC)And Kuzum is such a great little kid - despite his horrible parents
Kuzum is completely adorable and does prove the point that it's not the paternity that matters, a point Lymond himself has to realize through Checkmate (he is always kinder to others than to himself).
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Date: 2007-06-01 04:45 pm (UTC)I haven't read Niccolo so can't spoil you :)
Re: Lymond's development. I do think he develops as a character. He both develops into 'more' of himself and also sheds certain things that he had at first. He's come a long way by the end of CM from the acid-tongued but a bit immature showoff of beginning of GOK. Of course, he also develops a lot more issues :)
I am not sure about the inherent/outside distinction though. Aren't any developments we have are as a result of interactions with an environment? Unless you are someone who is by himself on a deserted island always stable, then any development will come as a result of outside stimuli.
I don't find him irritatingly altruistic because he is never saintly about it, never takes a great deal of delight (though a great deal of snark) and because I think it stems from his unworthiness feeling: here is where abnegation of self comes in. There is no self to abnegate, he thinks. Besides, he is capable of putting the hurt on people, and I like that.
Btw, how old were you? (I started when I was 20 or so).
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Date: 2007-06-01 05:42 pm (UTC)guess my reservation about him is his intransigence. Of course, he applies this intransigence equally to himself and others, which is entirely FAIR, I suppose.
I actually think he is kinder to others than himself in that regard. It is a flaw but hey, a perfect character would be boring :)
I do think it's tied to his control issues. He's had so little control at crucial times in his life that he is all about what he can have, appearance-wise, behavior-wise etc. In a way, it's super significant of Philippa's (amd Sybilla's) importance in his life that with them his control runs out. He cannot regulate himself about Philippa in CM. He wants her and he can fight it but it's driving him to the edge. And then at the end even though he knows it's a bad idea, he rides to see her and (of course) that quote about his mind being subsumed by the needs of his body, which is probably something that happened to him for the first time since he was a child as I guess it's the first time he feels it's safe to let go and also cannot control it.
When I think of Lymond, the phrase that always comes to mind is a brief one at the end of GoK where Dunnett references his 'tired, passionate mind.'
I find Lymond exceptionally reactive
I agree, he is incredibly reactive. I think he must have been to a degree, even growing up in that bizarro household, but any tendencies would have been exascerbated after Solway Moss. If you think about it, he has no time to be proactive, he is busy enough dodging curveballs thrown at him.
The one time we see him be proactive again is in Queen's Play but I get the sense that he doesn't know what to do with himself for the first part of it: he has no intrinsic stability/balance/self-worth to enable him to really enjoy peacefulness (he acquires it later, through Philippa, but he always needs a goal, whether it's fighting Gabriel or making the woman he loves happy or what not). And then it goes to hell in a handbasket from there on.
13 or 14, never been kissed, and no idea WTF I had in my hands. :)
Wow. I have no idea what I would have made of it at that age...
no subject
Date: 2007-06-02 05:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-02 01:33 am (UTC)I noticed you talking about Richard *points up*. I loved the character of Richard and I loved his relationship with Lymond. It could have been so resentful on both their parts - Lymond's because Richard had the 'easier' path, Richard's because Lymond got all the gifts - and it did have its resentful moments of course, but beneath all that there was genuine heartfelt love and committment and loyalty and I thought it was beautifully expressed. It was a perfect sibling relationship.
I cannot reread them at the moment. I don't have time. Stop tempting me!
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Date: 2007-06-02 05:05 pm (UTC)I am going to respond to the Richard point in the other reply :)
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Date: 2007-06-02 05:07 am (UTC)But congratulations on reading one of the great books of historical fiction!
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Date: 2007-06-02 05:09 pm (UTC)*blushes*
hate all the women in his life --
That's horrible. I love LC in part because it has so many fascinating women characters.
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Date: 2007-06-02 08:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-04 04:28 am (UTC)rachat de credit
Date: 2011-06-28 11:35 am (UTC)Mon francais n'est pas tres bon, je suis de l'Allemagne.
Mon blog:
rachat des credit aussi rachat de credit (http://www.rachatdecredit.net) surendettement