Bollywood fandom rant

[dangermousie]

Oh Bollywood fandom!

Generally, I love you. Either because I can read cool in-depth discussion at BollyWHAT or be severely amused elsewhere at your bouts of 'Actor A is the best thing since humans evolved from apes, and therefore Actors B, C, and D suck and I shall bash them AND their mothers' or 'Actress X is really fat/should get married/I have a shrine to her and write her poems in my blood.'

But. Sometimes you make me want to poke your eyes out with a rusty fork. If you were personified, that is.

And some of the reactions to Dhoom 2 are making me consider investing in rusty cutlery. I am not talking about 'the movie sucked/rocked' or 'Hrithik/Abhishek/Aishwarya/Bipasha were awesome/dreadful' reactions. I am talking about something very specific.



I am talking to the reaction I've seen crop up to the Hrithik-Aishwarya kiss. Aka the bashy frenzy.

Why?

It's not about 'this was an unrealistic kiss' or whatever (which I'd think is a point that can be made in context of movie discussion).

It's the 'OMG, so disgusting, unnecessary, WRONG!' reactions. Or the 'Aishwarya is totally slutty, I hate her' reaction. Granted, I am no Aishwarya's Number 1 fan, though I like her just fine, but that strikes me as OTT. In a bizarre instance of double standards, Hrithik is getting less flack. Maybe it's because he's kissed on screen before (MPKDH, off the top of my head) but then so has Ash! In KHGN and Taal, though both of those were quick brief presses of the lips of the blink-and-miss variety.

Heck, most male stars with the exceptions of Shahrukh Khan and Salman Khan have kissed on screen. And a large number of female ones as well (Rani Mukherji is a kissing fiend :P).

And most importantly, for God's sake. It's only a kiss. They aren't wrestling naked on the ground (*mmmm, naked Hrithik* derails line of thought*). They aren't even frenching! There are a lot of movies (Murder, etc) that have kiss-a-thons. True, this is a major banner movie with two A-list stars, but for goodness' sake, it's not even as lengthy a kiss as the one in Raja Hindustani with the superstars Aamir Khan and Karisma Kapoor that is what, 10 years old?

I've even seen comments saying that yeah, fine, it was unnecessary, as the camera could have pulled away. Yeah, it could have. But why? The impact of the romantic scene would be lost. Also, I fail to see the horribleness of seeing two very attractive people who portray characters madly in love and with awesome chemistry kiss on screen. It's a nice, real kiss, but as I said, they aren't eating each other's faces. And it is something that would absoultely happen in the context of the scene. Why? Why am I even discussing this? I mean, it's a freaking KISS for God's sake.

Maybe I am just too Western to get this.

Get the hell over it, weird people.

And stop freaking me out.

Comments

[kabutar.livejournal.com]

I agree. Normally I don't particularly like random kissing in general and I'm sure you've heard me say that. But here... it was perfect. It was well done. Not slutty. Not OTT. Not awkward. And fitted right in to the storyline.

I suppose some of the people are on the "Aish said she'd never kiss!" but that's taken out of context anyway so whatever. And I don't particularly like Aish generally, but even then, I don't see any problem with it here. At all.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't like the silly 'come see our movies, we have kissing' stuff some movies do, just to get attention (leaving aside everything else, it's because it completely distracts from the storyline or anything else in the movie but is just tailored to be sensational and comes across as forced and silly), but it's just as ridiculous not to have a kiss when the scene calls for it, as the scene here so clearly did.

It was sexy and romantic and totally necessary for the scene so the fuss just bugs me.

"Aish said she'd never kiss!" but that's taken out of context anyway so whatever.

Exactly. I mean, seriously, the girl kissed on screen before!

[kabutar.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

Although, I could have seen the scene (ugh, alliteration!) go either way - I don't think the kiss was necessarily necessary. (... good grief!) but I don't mind that it was there either. If that makes any sense :P

And we will just ignore my butchering of English. XD

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It's funny, because if it was anywhere but Bollywood, I would have thought the kiss was 100% going to happen. Because I really thought it was necessary at that point (I was expecting to be treated to some hugging only though, so imagine my delighted surprise). There was all that tension and the love confessions and the finding out the emotional truth about Aish blah blah blah. In RL, there'd be more than kissing :P

Sometimes, in BW movies I get impatient because there is a scene where a kiss is really called for but they coyly cut away. Here they went with the logic of the scene and I liked that. (Another example of a really necessary kissmaking out is in Parineeta, or Bunty aur Babli IMO).

Also, I find it bizarre that there are some people at arms about the smoochies when e.g. Bips in her leave little to imagination bikini is a lot more potentially scandalous/explicit/provocative, IMO. Is it the difference in image, as Bips has a much more bold one? Or what?

[kabutar.livejournal.com]

Hmm, maybe it's the mentality then because I have a much harder time actually finding places where kisses are necessary in BW movies than in HW ones. Oddness. :P It's like a mental separation lol.

You're right though in RL there probably would have been more than kissing lol.

The Bips thing... I think that's just coz she's exposing, but kissing itself was always taken to be a very veryyy profound (for lack of a better word) act culturally, something about mimicking actual sex. So to us it's not a big deal, but others see it a different way I guess. And then that whole thing has carried over to what they say, what people think about stars kissing, etc. Myself I don't think it's anything of a big deal, but in an Indian movie it kind of is because of the culture, and also because BW does coy seduction much better :P

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh, there are not as many moments which require a kiss in BW than HW. I agree, the voy seduction is done so well. It's funny because I can watch pretty explicit stuff in HW and not blink an eye, but the wedding scene in Parineeta made me blushy.

So to us it's not a big deal, but others see it a different way I guess

Yeah, I guess it makes sense.

You're right though in RL there probably would have been more than kissing lol.

Heeee. That's why they cut away after the hug :P

[katranna.livejournal.com]

I actually thought it was gratuitous, hehe. It definitely didn't need to be that long at all, or such a close-up. But, whatever. It's Hrithik and Aish! Let people be happy!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Heh. Always the contrarian :P

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

Oh. Wait. Seriously? Fans are upset because the leads in a romantic movie share a (fully clothed, no tongues) KISS?

*picks jaw up off floor*

I mean, I admit, a lot of the sex scenes in modern movies throw me right out of suspended disbelief, because I can't help but think of the poor actors having to be so...er...intimate when they might not even *like* each other. Buuutt...a romantic kiss???

And actresses have "no kissing, please" clauses in their contracts?

*boggles*

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, yes.

Welcome to the world of Bollywood. I love it but it has its quirks.

Until fairly recently, kissing was a HUGE no-no. You'd see brief little pecks sometimes (e.g. in 1989 Qayamat Se Qayamat Tak about an Indian Romeo & Juliet there are some brief, playful, press mouth together kisses) but it would be teeny and rare.

In fact, the first big kiss of recent movies (aka in a A-list movie, A-list actors, a REAL kiss) was in 1996's 'Raja Hindustani' which was a huge hit, in part because of the scandalousness (you had two big stars, soaked from the rain, loooong kiss. Big hoopla). But interestingly, if you watch 'Mumbai Se Aya Mera Dost' a BW movie about villagers that came out a couple of years back, when the villagers see this scene on TV they are horrified and cover it. So it's still controversial, kissing is.

In the past few years, the kissing no-no has been gradually getting broken. In fact, the only two big male stars that have never kissed on screen (and have publicly stated they never will) are Shahrukh Khan and Salman Khan (both big superstars). Shahrukh has stated this is something he promised his wife and Salman has never explained why (but he has recently made a Hollywood movie, Marigold, which isn't out yet, and even there the director said that one of the very few things Salman insisted on was that there would be no kissing between him and his leading lady). Oddly, this has nothing to do with concervatism, because in RL Salman is quite (and very openly) the happy party bachelor. It's a societal thing, I suppose.

It used to be a LOT more problematic for actresses than for actors to kiss on screen (which is why the female lead of D2 is getting more flak than the male), though this has recently been getting broken big time as well. Most A-list leading ladies have certainly kissed on screen. Still, 'no kissing' used to be pretty common in contacts and some leading ladies still have it.

Still, there is a certain reluctance to embrace this at all. As someone once put it, people tolerate Aamir Khan kissing his heroines (Aamir is one of the 'Three Khans,' the reigning stars (unrelated) of Bollywood) but they approve of Salman and Shahrukh's (the other two Khans) stands.

But when all this is said and done, the hoopla is bizarre because, as I said, most actors of either gender have kissed on screen. In fact, D2 co-stars Bipasha Basu who has no kissing in this one but whose 'shoot her to stardom' role was in remake of Body Heat which had (shocking! :P) french kissing! But, and I think this encapsulates Bolly attitudes in a nut-shell, that movie was opposite her boyfriend (now fiance) John Abraham and she said in an interview she would have felt horribly uncomfortable if it was anyone else. Whether that is true or not, I find it interesting that actresses have to toe this line.

As to the kiss in question here? It's a real kiss (though not french at all) which is partially the shocking thing as both those actors only had 'press lips together quickly' variety kisses before, but still...the hoopla is mind-boggling. I've read gossip articles that the female lead's putative boyfriend is gnashing his teeth in upset and comments by viewers that the male actor's wife should be freaking out. All about one, romantic and lovely, but still rather tame, kiss.

And this is probably a lot more than you wanted to know, sorry :)

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

ok, so, just as I was finally recovering from some questionable pictures you posted a while back...

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

But this has nothing to do with the movie itself, which is lovely and funny and romantic and has cool action scenes and doesn't take itself too seriously.

You should watch. Every fandom has nutty fans.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

heh. Fandoms scare me. Have ever since Magnificent Seven was airing and I learned there were people who literally hated Laurie Holden(as in the actress, not the character she was playing) because her character was an eventual love interest for Michael Biehn's...never mind the fact that both characters had several seasons to go before they had a chance ofeven considering getting together.

Doramas have been safe, so far. I've seen a few perfectly nice and decent characters ripped into shreds for being OTP challengers(some who deserved it, some who didn't) but that's about it.

[callmecaito.livejournal.com]

(*mmmm, naked Hrithik* derails line of thought*)

SCREW YOU, YOU MADE ME SPIT COKE OUT ALL OVER MY LAPTOP.

*feigns indignation*

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

You know...

I think I might be grateful for Bollywood conservatism just this once.

Because if naked Hrithik actually manifested himself on a giant movie screen, I'd probably have to be carted off to the ICU. I mean, I was having troible breathing just with the open shirt and the low-cut pants.

[callmecaito.livejournal.com]

I vote Hrithik pulls a Jackie-Schroff-in-Rangeela and appears on screen in a Speedo.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Heh. Generally, speedos horrify me to an extreme degree but...if anyone could pull it off...

Why is it only the hideous Bolly actors (Jackie, Fardeen Khan) wear such eye-searing monstrocities? Even the 'I love to flaunt my bod' Salman wears normal swimming trunks.

And speaking of that, I vote in his next movie, Hrithik goes to the beach and appears in swimming trunks. True, his next one is Jodha-Akbar which is set in what..16th century? But what'a a little anachronism now and then?

[autumn-yaar.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I don't like that she kissed because when she first came around she did some US show saying she wouldn't kiss on film because it goes against her Indian values. And she flaunted that she still lives with her parents, she is totally moral ect ect..

and then she kissed in two movies. hypocritical much?

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

But she kissed in Taal way before coming to the States etc. (Also, was KHGN before or after her US thing). I haven't watched any of her talk show stuff, but if she is a hypocrite, it's a separate issue (though I think she is entitled to change her mind. HW actresses do all the time about nudity).

I don't think kissing is immoral so it doesn't bother me, I guess.

The whole 'OMG sinful' thing I see on some forums just confuses me though.

[autumn-yaar.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sinful or whatever is a seperate issue.
I just have a problem with how Aish went on this show, it was right around when she was getting popular and they were trying to start to sell her to American audiences. She did a big thing about Indian values and I remember the host was making fun of the not being able to kiss ect ect thing.
It's just wierd she would use that angle to sell herself and then go right back on it. Hmm. I think she even said the same thing on Oprah, and that was way after she kissed in that one movie with Vivek.

[lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com]

In the Cinema someone should 'r-rated!' at this and someone else cried 'Abhishek watch out!' which I thought was quite funny. It's rather funny how thrown you are when watching kisses in BW though; it didn't bother me, but it did startle. Althougy I was more freaked out by Russian roulette as foreplay and some of AR's more questionable outfits than the kiss.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

'Abhishek watch out!'

Heeee. ROFL.

I loved the roulette scene because they struck me as characters who would do that...

Completely, completely off topic...............

[goddess09807.livejournal.com]

You need to be watching VMars it got sooooooooooooooooo much better and you NEED to see tonights episode IT ROCKED and I want to read ur squee about it. Plz?

Re: Completely, completely off topic...............

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I know!!!! I just did!!!!!

LOOoOoooGAN.

[rajni.livejournal.com]

Hrithik and Aish kissing - when I first found out about this, I almost fell over. Out of pure excitement. Maybe I can hitch a ride with some brown people and go see D2!!! AHHHHHH.

Anyway, yeah, too many BW fans are crazy. And not in a good way. In a weird, judgmental, archaic way. I got your back, yo! Err, or something like that. XD

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yeah :)

I don't know where you live, but it's totally worth seeing on the big screen. So fun! :)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I was more shocked on Hrithik's behalf. I mean, I know he kissed Amisha in KNPH, but still... He seems like such a good little doting manboy in interviews. Like he would at least be as dedicated to Suzanne as he is to Gauri.

I don't get the outrage anyway. Hrithik is married. Aish is current single, possibly even unattached. Shouldn't people go after HIM instead of her?

Plus, have people seen that marital sex scene in Shabd?

I agree that her Oprah "I'm so sweet and wholesome/no kissing" interview was a major foot in the mouth thing to do. But it was that long before D2. As people have pointed out, she has kissed before/simulated kissing before?

Honestly? Wanna hear my theory? Her upcoming Hollywood movies probably have kisses in them. And D2 is probably just to prepare the public for it so people won't say she went to Hollywood and got slutty there/that she will kiss a gori guy but not an Indian guy.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Which of course should read "as SRK is to Gauri".

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

such a good little doting manboy in interviews

OK, now I am imagining him in a pinafore and that's just scary. :P

But he did kiss not just Amisha in KNPH but Kareena in MPKDH (though yeah, that movie is best forgotten by all involved). Of course, there was that rumor that there was more than kissing with Kareena, in the pre-Shahid days. I don't buy it myself but we'll never know either way (I have to say, if Shahid is anything to go by, Kareena's tastes are not very hrithik-bound though or have changed since. Every time I see Kareena and Shahid together I can't help the bad/wrong vibe. Seriously, he looks 12 even though he isn't. OK, I sidetracked).

Like he would at least be as dedicated to Suzanne as he is to Gauri.


Heeee. I dunno. I think this is my Western perspective coming in again and making me a bit 'huuuuuh?' on the whole thing. I get that a wife wouldn't want her husband to kiss anyone else. So kudos to SRK and Gauri. But I would be just as POed if my husband was kissing necks and stomachs of other women, which is something even the no-mouth-kissers do. Odd.

Her upcoming Hollywood movies probably have kisses in them. And D2 is probably just to prepare the public for it so people won't say she went to Hollywood and got slutty there/that she will kiss a gori guy but not an Indian guy.

You know? This, I can totally see. I also read somewhere that Aditya was going to have kissing there and if she didn't like it, he was going to get someone else. I think her wanting a hit also played into her agreeing.

[jhana87.livejournal.com]

she did some US show saying she wouldn't kiss on film because it goes against her Indian values. And she flaunted that she still lives with her parents, she is totally moral ect ect..

But then I also saw her on other US shows (60 minutes?) where she kept saying "we'll cross that bridge when it comes to it" (which, I have to say, drove me insane after she'd said that for the 5th time...).

I think the issue with Aish is this - she would not be comfortable doing HW-style kissing. Because, let's be frank, kissing in [non-Emraan] films in BW barely goes beyond "quick peck"... if she agreed to do a kiss in a HW film, it would most likely be of the French variety, and I don't think many mainstream BW actresses would be happy doing that.

In the Cinema someone should 'r-rated!' at this and someone else cried 'Abhishek watch out!' which I thought was quite funny.

In my showing someone yelled "they're shagging!"

I find it all faintly amusing really, although I do feel sorry for Aish. She was perhaps the only big star actress in BW these days who hadn't kissed properly... Rani, Kajol (Fanaa anyone? no kiss, but she's married...), Preity... they don't get this amount of flack. But Aish is the vamp.

I couldn't help thinking "oh Suzaane you lucky...."

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I find it all faintly amusing really, although I do feel sorry for Aish. She was perhaps the only big star actress in BW these days who hadn't kissed properly... Rani, Kajol (Fanaa anyone? no kiss, but she's married...), Preity... they don't get this amount of flack. But Aish is the vamp.

Heeee. I think it's because she attracts such ambivalent attention from the viewrs, both because of her PR and her Salman stuff and her percieved attitude and everything.

I do agree on the kissing in HW v. BW. I can't see her being comfortable with frenching on screen.

I couldn't help thinking "oh Suzaane you lucky...."

Oh yeah. Indeed. *swallows tongue as she remembers Hrithik in D2*

The thing that cracked me up was some interview with him where they were asking if his kid looks more like him or Suzanne and he said Suzanne which is good for the kid because she is better looking than he is. Now, she is very good-looking. But either it's false modesty or the green eyes need some contacts in them :P

Seriously, the guy is a genetic freak. Especially when you look at the rest of his family :)

[fivil.livejournal.com]

Such lameness. I haven't seen the kiss but I found out about it because some folks at Bwhat SUCK at spoiler-tagging crap - hello, putting the NAME of the movie within the spoiler text? I have to read the spoiler to know what movie it spoils a bit - but that's another rant I have, and I don't really mind. It's a kiss, it exists - I'll see it when I see the movie.

I always find it ironic that there are BW fans in the West who're more conservative than some Indians watching these films - a lot of urbanized crowds are totally okay with this stuff, no matter how unnecessary. I couldn't give two craps about BW maintaining its "innocence" or anything of that sort, as long as they keep producing some good movies and good romantic movies (and I think they still do), kissing or no kissing.

Considering YRF's recent modern bunch of films, I'm not surprised at all.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I know. It's not like it's not a studio who released Salaam Namaste and Neil 'n' Nikki (*shudder*).

[fivil.livejournal.com]

Or for more positive examples, Hum Tum & Bunty Aur Babli, where the kisses were nice and I don't think anyone complained too loudly about them.. So I guess the problem really is to do with people's attitudes for Aish. She's one of my least favourite actresses but I still wouldn't judge her based on just a kiss.