More Saiyuki: We got angst by the bucketload. And not all of it Hakkai's

[dangermousie]

Got back from a lovely weekend in NYC (pictures forthcoming). Friend who I was visiting and I went to the amazing Egyptian exhibit at the Met (Hatshepsut related).

Also watched more Saiyuki which continues to be excellent. The multi-parter where Goku reverted to his crazy, berserker self to save Sanzo was really good. But what really struck me was the mutual love between Sanzo and Goku (though I think slash writers for this pair are scary, since the vibe I am getting is father/son, and I am just as icked out as I am by the thought of Kara/Adama). Goku turning into a monster to save Sanzo is quite impressive (especially since this time, it was a conscious choice), and Sanzo coming out of his poisoning-induced coma (even though he shouldn't move, as the more he moves, the faster the poison spreads) is even more impressive, especially considering how closed off Sanzo is at his baseline. That whole scene with Sanzo facing the berserker Goku with his gun and telling him to come at him, and then as Goku charges, throwing his gun away is...wow. And then of course, all four of the guys (including the back-to-sanity-through-Sanzo's-skill Goku) are completely wounded and messed up and about to die (I love the bit where Hakkai thinks he can't drive because of internal injuries and Gojyo telling him he will drive instead). This show is big on h/c. I feel bad for Kougaiji being almost killed by Goku, but I don't feel TOO bad. I am sorry, if you challenge someone to a fight to the death, and tell them that if they win, they can have the transportation which their father figure needs to keep from dying (and you know that), you deserve whatever you get.

I love Sanzo waking up from his nightmares of being captured, and the thing that really terrifies him is being unworthy, being weak. I think it's the first time we've seen grown-up Sanzo really vulnerable. Keep it up, show, and he might even be as much of a favorite as Hakkai. I do love Hakkai comforting Sanzo and telling him he isn't. And I love that Hakkai knows that Sanzo is worried about Goku but would never admit it, so he tells him where Goku is, and Sanzo is all "I couldn't care less blah blah" and no one is fooled by it, not even Sanzo, and Sanzo admitting he is an idiot (re: caring for Goku). I think even though Goku is the only person Sanzo actually loves, Hakkai is the only person he can open up to. And of course, Hakkai feels guilty for not stopping Goku, but Goku feels even more guilty about his uncontrollable rampage (and I love that Gojyo cheers him up). And then Hakkai tells Goku Sanzo is awake, and Goku is terrified that Sanzo will be mad, but Sanzo comes in, all bandaged, even though he shouldn't be out of bed (he clearly wanted to see Goku but forget about admitting it) and quietly asks Goku for a can of beer (he is the worst invalid ever). And Goku wouldn't look at him and then they have this lovely moment and THEN Sanzo starts hitting him with his paper fan and yelling at him for being an idiot. And I love the bit at the end in Sanzo's room, where Sanzo is quietly reading the paper and Goku is perched on the chair, and everything is back to normal and Hakkai mentions that Goku managed to break through Sanzo's shell. Hmmmm. Love this. And Gojyo teasing and pissed off Sanzo shooting through the wall.

I love the next ep too, where they come across a village who sends a girl to a demon every year. And of course, Hakkai falshbacks to Kanan and he just can't allow it to happen and the rest of the gang won't leave Hakkai. I think he is forced to rescue 'Kanan' over and over again, always seeking some sort of expiation for arriving late (though it wasn't his fault). That scene when the girl goes to him "you've saved me" and he hugs her, with his hands shaking, and calls her 'Kanan' is heart-breaking.

Comments

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

I think Sanzo's issues with weakness stems from the fact that he's had several people die protecting him, therefore that to him means he's weak and people die because not only can he not protect them, bu the can't protect himself. That is partially why he doesn't want anyone to care about him. He doesn't think he can protect them. Sanzo is the opposite of Gojyo, who tries to protect everyone because he thinks he should.

And Kou, though I regret him getting hurt in that instance, had it coming. While I don't think Kou knew Goku could or would do that, he stepped into something he wasn't prepared for.

And Hakkai and Sanzo have an understanding in a way that none of the other characters have. Hakkai isn't the slightest bit intimidated by Sanzo and doesn't worry about offending him by saying what he sees as really going on with Sanzo. Interestingly, Sanzo takes it pretty well from him most of the time.

All of the boys are just wrecks. Hakkai and Sanzo probably the most. Neither of them can be helped. Both are fairly irrepairably broken and always will be. And you wonder what will happen to Sanzo if he does find the scripture and gets the demons back to normal, since the majority of his life and all of his life after his Master died has been spent killing.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I need a Sanzo icon. (I have one saved, but am still deciding which one of my current ones to kick out :P)

That is partially why he doesn't want anyone to care about him. He doesn't think he can protect them.

That is his trigger, actually, just as Hakkai's is Kanan (and interestingly, Goku's trigger is Sanzo, though arguably, his trigger is always on and only the diadem is keeping it suppressed). That is why he goes so psycho on the demon chick: it's because she tells him he is a weak human, and because it's in the context of her killing a Sanzo. In a way, just as Hakkai is doomed to relive Kanan's death and his failure to save her, over and over, Sanzo is forced to relive the night when his father figure died at the hands of a demon and he couldn't save him. He is haunted by failure.

Sanzo is the opposite of Gojyo, who tries to protect everyone because he thinks he should.

That is a really great observation! I think the difference stems from their childhoods: Gojyo had a nasty one with an abusive mother and he probably wanted someone to protect him (his brother did it to the best of his ability, but there isn't much kids can do against a grown-up). So now he is highly motivated by that (e.g. that ep where he helped a little girl looking for her parents). His life had been ruined by non-interference, so now he MUST interfere.

But that is not so for Sanzo. Sanzo had loved and lost (a parent figure). If he didn't love Sanzo Sr (yeah, I know not his name) so much, it wouldn't have hurt so badly when he died. And he thinks he is incapable of protecting, so it's not just to protect others he keeps them at a distance, it's to protect himself as well. So he operates from that standpoint. Of course, it's futile, as even Sanzo, shut down as he is, has to feel something (he is a good person who is incredibly fucked up, not a sociopath), and he loves Goku (I think in many ways Goku reminds him of himself as a child, but also it's because Sanzo, underneath all the coating he tries to put on it, has a good heart and it was touched by Goku). Goku's yelling at him is the one who pulls him back from killing the demon woman, e.g.

Hakkai isn't the slightest bit intimidated by Sanzo and doesn't worry about offending him by saying what he sees as really going on with Sanzo

I think Hakkai acts so gentle and mature, but is in a different way, equally detached from the world, so Sanzo feels an odd kinship, or if not kinship, than understanding with him. After all, even when his Kanan-trigger kicks in, he is irrational but not unreasoning. Plus, Hakkai is hard to ruffle (he's had the freak out of the century already, after all).

Hakkai and Sanzo probably the most. Neither of them can be helped. Both are fairly irrepairably broken and always will be.

I wonder what it says about me, that they re my favorites of the four.

And you wonder what will happen to Sanzo if he does find the scripture and gets the demons back to normal, since the majority of his life and all of his life after his Master died has been spent killing

Yes, he'll be obsolete. And once demons get back to normal, he'll be faced anew with the fact that he's killed the relatives of these normal people, who are now grieving for them. I think Hakkai and Sanzo are better off reincarnating...

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

In a way, just as Hakkai is doomed to relive Kanan's death and his failure to save her, over and over, Sanzo is forced to relive the night when his father figure died at the hands of a demon and he couldn't save him.

I think that's part of why Hakkai and Sanzo get along. Their issues run similar. With Gojyo and Goku, their issues are not being loved. Hakkai and Sanzo's are loving and losing. No love has made Goku and Gojyo immature while losing has made Hakkai and Sanzo far more mature and world weary than they have to be (they're only 22 and 23 after all).

I think the difference stems from their childhoods

They both know the opposite ends of things. Gojyo knows about the pain of not being loved and Sanzo knows about the pain of someone loving you enough to die for you. There isn't a happy medium for the two of them. That's why Gojyo is still desperately searching for love while Sanzo is trying to get as far away from it as possible.

I think Hakkai and Sanzo are better off reincarnating...


But the funny thing is that Sanzo stubbornly does NOT want to die. The Merciful Goddess likes him so much simply because he IS such a tough SOB to kill. I think it's the fact that he's been so screwed over by life he'll be damned if he rolls over and takes it. Hakkai isn't quite that determined. Sanzo isn't going to die easy. Funny how that is.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Gojyo knows about the pain of not being loved and Sanzo knows about the pain of someone loving you enough to die for you. There isn't a happy medium for the two of them.

Saiyuki seems to disprove the old adage of 'better to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all.' Because Goku and Gojyo, who suffer from lack of love, are a lot more functional than Sanzo and Hakkai, who've had a great love and lost it. Because a lack of love can be remedied by finding love (which is why Goku sticks so desperately to Sanzo), but Sanzo and Hakkai aren't really healable.

And of course, Gojyo and Sanzo are at the extremes, but in some ways, these extremes are forced on them by the times. Gojyo's relationships are in some ways, most mundane. His issues are not dependent on the demon shift. Unfortunately, in any society, no matter how well-regulated and peaceful, some children will be abused. But it's different for Hakkai and Sanzo. If a society was peaceful and law-obiding, Kanan wouldn't have been given to Maio and Sanzo's father wouldn't have been killed by demons. Though of course, even in a society that doesn't suffer from demons losing it, there is still no guarantee for either of these. Not all demons are good, even in their normal state, not more than all people are good, so Kanan could have still been given to Maio. And even with Sanzo's father, there are some nasty beings out there, and he still could have gotten killed. But of course, if it wasn't for the demons going crazy, the chances of either of these events might have been smaller.

There is a certain mundaneness about evil in the show, one of the many reasons I really like Saiyuki. It's not a show I am marathonning (for one, it's too bloody long and for another it's not arced enough), but it's a show I really like watching.

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

Sanzo and Hakkai aren't really healable

They might have been had their issues and situations not gone so spectacularly wrong. Hakkai already had issues to begin with (being raised in an orphanage, anger issues) and so did Sanzo (abandonment, bullying). And it wasn't just like Kanan was accidentally shot in a drive by or something, she killed herself in the most disturbing way possible in front of Hakkai. The Kamiya Sanzo didn't just die in his sleep, he died in Sanzo's arms after being impaled. Had what happened been toned down for either of them, they might have turned out more normal. Sad, but at least fixable.

And maybe the point is not to invest all of your love into one person. After Kanan and the Kamiya Sanzo are killed, Hakkai and Sanzo have no one else. They invested everything in one person and when that person died, they were irrepairably damaged. Even Goku, who has so much invested in Sanzo, at least still has Hakkai and Gojyo if something happens. Gojyo still has Dokugakuji, the other guys and all the strays he's saved.

I'm still going to warn you that the Himura arc makes me want to pull my hair out. It's not so much Himura himself, since I actually like Himura as a character, just the way the whole thing is done. You can skip that arc and go to Reload too without missing anything if you get desperate.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I am going to see how I like the Himura arc. At the very worst, there is the lovely function known as ff. Or I might like it, who knows.


And maybe the point is not to invest all of your love into one person. After Kanan and the Kamiya Sanzo are killed, Hakkai and Sanzo have no one else. They invested everything in one person and when that person died, they were irrepairably damaged.

But then of course, neither of them had much of a choice. It's not as if they had a smorgarbord of potential people to love and turned up their noses. They are both orphans who have no one, so have no one to fall back on. If Kanan and Hakkai had kids by the time they died, or if Sanzo was older when Kamia died and so branched out more into being with other people, it might have been different (though I think, due to the 'nobody wants you' feeling associated with being an orphan, it must have been hard for them to connect, especially for someone like Sanzo who is really looked down on and who was young and prickly). But they never had a chance. And of course, the horrific nature of the deaths also has a lot to do with it.

I don't think finding other people to love (having more than one person) would have necessarily saved them, though. After all, Sanzo now loves Goku and I think Hakkai cares for the other three. But the loss of someone so important to them scarred them forever,

Hi!

[elarielf.livejournal.com]

I'm here via a friend's friend.

I've never nodded at as many things as in your post. I've just started Saiyuki, and I love your read on Hakkai reading Sanzo (and Goku).

Everytime Kanan is brought up I get sad. Sad and uncomfortable...

So anyways... I kinda friended you... is that okay?

Re: Hi!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh, of course it's OK. I love people friending me (ego boost and all that). I'll friend you back. Always need more anime friends.

Sad and uncomfortable...

Oh yes. Because her reaction was understandable (re: suicide) but it screwed Hakkai up beyond any hope of normalcy. And that whole story is just beyond sad. I like angsty, but that isn't angsty, it's painful.

I've just started Saiyuki

I've just recently started it too (and been babbling away about :P). It's great, isn't it?