BSG: 2:13, Epiphanies

[dangermousie]

Well, BSG 2.13 "Epiphanies" was an excellent episode and it also made me frakking uncomfortable.



Because forcible abortion is wrong. I don't care if the Caprica Cylons are making humans have babies. Two wrongs do not make a right. And, human or not, Sharon is clearly a sentient, feeling being and the scene of her heart-wrenching conversation with Helo where he tells her about Adama's command, and her hitting her head repeatedly on the glass, and her trying to fight off the soldiers later all made me feel horrified. She is no different in her reaction from any normal human woman and maybe it's my buttons as a woman here, but I find this even more horrifying than the attempted rape and pretty freaking unforgivable. I don't care if Sharon is a Cylon. If they pushed her out of the airlock when she came on board, whatever, I can see that. But this? Or Baltar's little blood games? And keeping Sharon for experiments? That's not just denying her humanity, it's denying the fleet's. Yes, there is a reason that Roslin gives (in large part motivated by her desire to set the house in order before death) and a reason Adama listens (I think it's more a desire to fulfil her last request than anything), but Adama might have apologized for attempted rape, but in here he and Roslin are dangerously slippery-sloping to Cain and her keeping Gina like a tortured animal.

And the whole Cylon-Human thing has this hugely disturbing racial tinge to me, reminding me of ethnic cleansing, on both parts. For humans, it doesn't matter if Sharon (as she put it) tried to prove that not all Cylons are murderers. The fact that she is a Cylon is the only important one and precludes her from being considered as anything else. And the same is the attitude for Cylons with humans. It doesn't matter your personal qualities, if you are a human you deserve death.

I bring my own baggage to the show of course, but the forced blood transfusion remindedme of nothing as much as the Nazi doctors bleeding Jewish children dry (literally) to use them as donors for the German soldiers. Because the children weren't human. Yes, Sharon is not a child. But her only crime seems to be a Cylon, and once again, we are back to the disturbing limitations and all-encompassing of race. Of course, the Cylons are not better, they are worse. They wiped out most of the human civilization, yes different magnitude, but the gradations of horrible are still horrible. Horror is on both sides.

I have to say, if I didn't love Helo before this, I'd certainly do so now. The scene with Adama is amazing: full of pain and just inflexible incomprehension. And the scene when he sees Sharon fall apart and cannot do anything to stop it except to try to talk her down even though he is just as devasted as she is, is quite something. And then of course his being ready to draw his gun on the Marines even though it will be clearly futile and begging Adama to let him have a viper to take Sharon away, and soothing her in the medbay. Quite a guy.

In fact, I think Helo and Boomer are the only two characters who managed to transcend the inflexible racial enmity. No, Helo isn't about to invite toasters for a christening nor is Boomer going to join "I wuv humans " club (especially now), but they have each put an individual and his/her characteristics, character, identity above their species grouping. They are capable, however limitedly, to see beyond the label. They see a person for a person in the case of each other, and I think it's a very good thing. (I don't include Baltar in this because hey, he's insane, but I open to being convinced).

I have no idea if anyone agrees with me on the above, and I am certainly open and willing and eager to engage in discussion, and for people to set different arguments. I mean it, I'd love to see it from a different angle, to see something I haven't. Because for now? I can understand Adama and Roslin's decision but I have nothing but contempt for it.

Oh yeah, and Baltar the nutcase gave Cylons a nuke.

P.S. No, Sharon didn't do what she did out of compassion. Why would she? Nor did she do it out of desire to survive. If that is all that she wanted she would have kept Helo running the program as scheduled back on Caprica. She did what she did for love. Which is a frighteningly human concept, isn't it?

Comments

[mary-goodnight.livejournal.com]

it's funny in my micro aritecture course we learned the five basics of a computer
1.input
2.output
3.logic
4.memory
5.control

it made me think of the cylons, and the last one makes it very clear the cylons are not computers, or just machines. Sharon can't control her loveing feelings for her baby and Helo, and no one can make her love or hate someone, or give her ideas. That to me makes her diffrent.

and I was also freaked out by the forced abortion thing, the breeding-farm haunted me but this was savage. And here's where I'll argue Baltar's genuine concern, he took that damn clipboard everywhere and kept working on it. and in last weeks episode he said he loved Gina. That's a huge admission because on Caprica he didn't care about her at all, he was cheating on her etc and now he's in love with her, but even then he doen't join her cause right away he sees the baby as another way to reach the same goal. he only joins when his efforts go unoticed and yes he is crazy but he's getting more compassion as the series goes on. It's like my high school english teacher gave us as writing prompt for The Scarlett Letter, redemption cannot come from the insitution it has to come from the heart. Boomer and Gaius redeem themselves with acts of love and sacrifice. Gaius will be forgiven (to himself anyway) for dooming Caprica through love, as Boomer is redeamed by her love of Helo.

still kind of related Helo was brillient with Adama who was being a huge jerk. How would he like it if Lee died? He's a father he should have felt something.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yes, Baltar's shrivelled little heart is developing a capacity to love, twisted and selfish and unbalanced as this love it.

How would he like it if Lee died?

I liked that Helo pointed this out.

Yes, Boomer's feelings for Helo and the Baby show that she is not a computing devise but a being with a soul, whatever that may mean. Can she potentially be evil/manipulative/other bad things Adama suspects her of? Of course, look at Idiot Baltar. But it does mean she is not a thing and should not be treated as such.

[weissman.livejournal.com]

Hi
May I add you to my list of friends
Bob W

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course. But I do have to warn you that I post like crazy (20+ times a week) and usually only one of those posts is BSG-related and I always cross-post at 13th_colony, so just wanted to give you fair warning :P

[weissman.livejournal.com]

That's fine I love reading your stuff.

Bob

[solarbird]

I thought Sharon and Helo were great. That whole set of things was fabulous.

But the saving of President Roslyn was, dramatically, a disaster. From a "faith in the show to pull the trigger" standpoint, from a "being smart" standpoint, it lowers my estimation of what I can expect in episodes to come. I am very unhappy.

It's possible for the show to recover from this, but given that this plot turd actively axises upon Sharon's and Helo's baby, it makes me worried about their arc, and that of their child, as well. I am Not Thrilled.

[sprocketship.livejournal.com]

Traditionally(and statistically), the arrival of a baby is the death blow to a TV show's ratings.

This can be seen over and over again ever since I LOVE LUCY's arrival of "Little Ricky" to as recently as MARRIED WITH CHILDREN (they had one season with a little kid, then dumped him the next year and never made mention of him again) to MAD ABOUT YOU.

In the sci-fi world, mutant babies are very weak plot points to hang a show from. If you remember V THE MINI-SERIES and then V THE SERIES, then you'll understand where I'm coming from.

The build up to the baby's arrival is always a big one, but the outcome is, 99% of the time, a total failure. Ever since Sharon was first pregnant, I've been dreading where BSG would go, and tonight was the first major result of this story arc.

Dramatically, it was a disaster. Characters, who once had to act without flinching, are now flinching, and making choices that are traditionally out of character for them.

I still don't get why Baltar handed over a nuclear warhead to a terrorist group. For someone who has always acted out of self preservation, this choice made no sense at all.

Since last week, when Adama failed to "Pull the trigger" and take out Cain, I don't trust Ronald Moore.

Tonight was the episode that SHOULD have pushed BSG into new and unknown territory. Instead, it boldly went where sci-fi has gone too often before: into cliched plot contrivances and fan pandering.

I'm very upset with these decisions.

[solarbird]

Traditionally(and statistically), the arrival of a baby is the death blow to a TV show's ratings.
Not always. C.f. LOST. However, I am uncomfortably aware of the trend. But all that even said, I don't expect the baby situation to end well.

In the sci-fi world, mutant babies are very weak plot points to hang a show from. If you remember V THE MINI-SERIES and then V THE SERIES, then you'll understand where I'm coming from.
My housemate was just telling me about this, that it went, um, horribly.

Ever since Sharon was first pregnant, I've been dreading where BSG would go, and tonight was the first major result of this story arc. Dramatically, it was a disaster.
Heh. Yeah.

Characters, who once had to act without flinching, are now flinching, and making choices that are traditionally out of character for them.
Well, we've had plenty of character flinching. What we haven't had a lot of is writers flinching, and now we've got that in spades.

Since last week, when Adama failed to "Pull the trigger" and take out Cain, I don't trust Ronald Moore.
I could buy that decision for reasons I outlined on 13th_colony. It was well within his range of character, as I see it. I had some other issues with that episode, but that was not one of them. However, this... makes me worry. A lot.

Tonight was the episode that SHOULD have pushed BSG into new and unknown territory.
Or, to be fair, bogged it down in a show about nothing but horrible politics. However, I would have rather it gone that way and risked that rather than compromise the material, as you mention.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

MARRIED WITH CHILDREN (they had one season with a little kid, then dumped him the next year and never made mention of him again)

ROFL. Really? They had a disappearing child?

Since last week, when Adama failed to "Pull the trigger" and take out Cain, I don't trust Ronald Moore.

I liked RM's decision because I think it was ultimately integral to Adama's character. He is not an assassin. In many ways, Roslin is much more cold-blooded than he is. But ymmv.

Instead, it boldly went where sci-fi has gone too often before: into cliched plot contrivances and fan pandering.

I guess I am one of the fans it pandered to, because the saving of Roslin didn't bother me. It was pretty clear she wasn't going to randomly die in mid-season 2, as a crucial character. Too much of a void.

And of course, the show would also then be bogged down in politics, as Adama would overrule Baltar pretty quick the first time Baltar would say something ridiculous, which will be in the first 5 minutes and we'd have a repetition of a Zarek arc, and unless we introduce a completely new cool politician we are in for a lifetime of either disaster or military dictatorship neither of which would make the show very watchable.

I think there will be enough politicking when the elections come up. And I can't wait to see Roslin deal with the fact that:
a. all these decisions she did as a dying woman she now has to live with
b. she is no longer a "dying leader" of the scrolls. Can she still lead people to Earth?
c. And the quorum and people will know she isn't dying eventually, and that's letting the cat among the pidgeons, since they believe in the prophet thing. Either they'll assume she lied, or she has to tell about miracle Cylon baby which will result:
1. in witchhunts. Cylons look like us
2. Baby cult, with a side of 'can I have some blood'

So I am interested to see where this will go, actually.

[greycoupon.livejournal.com]

MARRIED WITH CHILDREN (they had one season with a little kid, then dumped him the next year and never made mention of him again)

ROFL. Really? They had a disappearing child?

I *must* chime in here. Heh. Yes, Peggy's cousins ditched their kid "Seven" with the Bundy's one season. Yes, the child's name was Seven. The joke was they named him that since they had "One...two...three...four...seven kids" or something like that. He did indeed disapear after one season although a few seasons later we did see his picture on the side of a milk carton.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, the saving of Roslin didn't bother me. I am not sure whether it's because, as a spoiler whore, I knew about it,or because it's pretty clear they were not going to kill off one of the main, main characters randomly in midseason (the only main character they bumped off so far was Boomer and she had a copy). Roslin was never going to die quick. They might kill her off in s5 or something, but I couldn't imagine she was going to go in mid season 2. It affects the group dynamics that BSG is built on too much.

ymmv of course.

[weissman.livejournal.com]

Plus all the main characters are now under long term extended contracts. That means 5 years in addition to the two already. I got this from Mayo who got it off Aaron's web site
Bob W

[solarbird]

it's pretty clear they were not going to kill off one of the main, main characters randomly in midseason
But it's not randomly in any way! It's been built up to since the very first hour of the miniseries! It was the culmination of over a year and a half of plotline! And then they yanked the bottom out from underneath it!

I mean, we're not talking about her stepping suddenly into an open elevator shaft or something. What in the gods names was random about it?

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I too would have preferred if her death was deferred but cancer not completely cured, but I guess it just doesn't bother me much somehow probably because I can see interesting potentialities in this scenario and because I was expecting her to live.

BSG is a flawed show. Almost any show is. But as long as it gives me plenty to think about (and it does), I'll still like it and watch it.

[lucie-p.livejournal.com]

it's pretty clear they were not going to kill off one of the main, main characters randomly in midseason

Sure, it was to ebe expected she would somehow be saved miraculously, but this was the worrst they could have come up.

I am completely disgusted with the whole episode. Everything that made BSG different form other series has been lost here.

[bluehyacinth.livejournal.com]

I think that they are definitely wanting us to read the schism between the cylons and the humans as a racial divide. In several earlier episodes Six has called the word "toasters' a racial epithet.

I want to go for a hopeful reading of the scene with the transfusion, however. Rather than reading their use of the blood of the Sharon and Helo's child as purely instrumental and proof of their objectifying the fetus, I think they are aiming for a representation of the mixed-species child as the potential savior of both races, possibly even the incarnation of the cylon god.

Even more important, however, is that now Roslin herself is a human/cylon hybrid by virtue of her literally mixed-blood.

And it seems to me that hybridity is the only place the series can go. I can't believe we will end with the total destruction of the human race (except its end as a "pure" race), but the show has also created sympathy for, at least some, cylons in the viewer and an absolute human "victory" would also be unacceptable. So, hybridity.

But, wow, the logic behind all of that. The nearly insurmountable emotional weight and baggage. "You enslaved us and we wiped out billions of you. Shall we have a bunch of babies now?"

Generally, I imagine that we would have to close with a compromise in the flesh. The cylons will have to accept mortality and individuality, and the humans relinquish notions of "purity" and superiority.

Oh, BTW, I went to a pre-screening of Tristan and Isolde about two weeks ago and they were handing out posters. I thought of you and got one. If you'd like it, let me know and I will send it off.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

If you'd like it, let me know and I will send it off.

Ooooh, yes please. I'll pay for shipping and everything and will be eternally grateful.

But, wow, the logic behind all of that. The nearly insurmountable emotional weight and baggage. "You enslaved us and we wiped out billions of you. Shall we have a bunch of babies now?"

Exactly. The humans can't run forever, not even to Earth, as they don't seem to be making a great progress of running away. They got hidden Cylons among them!

But the peace party can't answer one question: how do you make peace when it seems Cylons want all humans dead, and more importantly, how do you trust them after what happened with the last peace treaty?

Also, how do you have babies with each other? I doubt most humans will volunteer. Yet, it seems the only way.

[bluehyacinth.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the hideous delay.
I still have the poster, I just need to find a mailer for it.
I am going to try to get one at Michael's tomorrow, then I will see if I can get an address for you.

Keep you posted.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Don't worry about it. And Thank You :)

[bluehyacinth.livejournal.com]

I've figured out a mode of mailing and expect to do so on Wednesday.

Address?

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Is it OK if I just make a custm-locked entry with my address in it?

Or would you like me to email it?

THANK YOU.

[bluehyacinth.livejournal.com]

Either works by me.

I hope you like the poster!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Will do a locked entry...

[weissman.livejournal.com]

You make a lot of sense , a lot of people have predicted this story arch.
Bob W
Sharon Rocks

[http://users.livejournal.com/ar_feiniel_/]

but I find this even more horrifying than the attempted rape and pretty freaking unforgivable.
I thought so too. Whenever she started slamming herself into that glass *cringes*....

It's kinda scary when the guy who's passing out nukes is the only one who feels any genuine compassion towards an unborn child...

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Whenever she started slamming herself into that glass *cringes*....

Oh yes. I guess it's the helplessness of Sharon's situation. At least Helo stood by her, as it would be even worse if he didn't care or let things happen.

It's kinda scary when the guy who's passing out nukes is the only one who feels any genuine compassion towards an unborn child...

But that's of course because he feels it's 'his' and because he is sorta insane enough to feel Moses to the Cylons.

[katranna.livejournal.com]

...I just find this post incredibly ironic in light of our earlier discussion. :-P

Of course you can say that Cyclons are as equally sentient as humans, and it does make a difference, but still. Mind trip!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Well, I do think there is a difference between Cylons and pets :P

On any other show they'd be aliens, i.e. not human but equally sentient :P

[zorb]

I love that this show forces us into those difficult situations, and that it's just how things happen in this set of circumstances - not necessarily (or usually) how we want them, morally, to happen. It's disturbing as hell that Roslin would make that choice, but now that she'll be living with the knowledge that a Cylon saved her life, I think she'll be forced to rethink her assumptions.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

but now that she'll be living with the knowledge that a Cylon saved her life, I think she'll be forced to rethink her assumptions

I don't know. Even if Sharon volunteered to donate, she'd still never trust a Cylon (after a nuclear holocaust, understandable). Seeing as Sharon had no choice, I doubt she'd declare general amnesty.

But yes, I want to see her live with all the decisions she made when she thought she wouldn't have to live with any of them. I think that made her extra ruthless.

[weissman.livejournal.com]

I actually want to see Roslyn get down on her knees and beg forgivness from Sharon and Helo.
Bob

[weissman.livejournal.com]

lets hope so, it would make sense and possibly redeem her a little bit. After that decision she is the poster child for why the cylons want the humans dead
Bob W
Sharon Rocks

[ayn-rand-fan-13.livejournal.com]

This was the first episode I've ever watched, so I was trying to figure out who everyone was for most of the show. Despite not having any idea what was happening, I did start crying when Sharon (I didn't even know her name) was running into the wall and Helo was trying to calm her down. Woah, that was intense.

I'm still kind of confused about character names, since some people call them by their first names and some by their last names, and I haven't quite matched them up yet. Baltar is the insane VP, right? Who was that woman he gave the nuke to, and what was with the person only he could see?

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

OK, a lot of them who are pilots have call signs in addition to their names.

Sharon is a Cylon who fell in love with Helo and defected. Basically, few people know that Cylons can look like us, and there was another Sharon on board of the ship that used to fly with Helo and that he was in love with so when this one showed up to 'save' him he believed it was her (he was stranded on a planet). But she fell in love with him for real and so did he even though he later found out she was a Cylon. She went AWOL.

Her name is Sharon Valerii, and her call sign is "Boomer" so that's what she is called (or at least the call sign of her 'twin').

Helo's real name is Karl Agathon but nobody calls him that anyway.

Gaius Baltar is the insane VP. "Six" is a Cylon model who he used to date on Caprica. Since he as designing a defense system she got a look at it and 'fixed' it so it died right away when Cylons attacked so Baltar is responsible for the destruction of humanity, in a way. Well, that Six died in the attacks, but ever after there has been this one, in his head, whom only he can see. Not sure what she is supposed to be, a chip, an angel, a psychosis.

The nuke woman is yet another copy of the Six model (called Gina). She was on a different ship and was tortured for ages and Baltar rescued her and smuggled her you see where. He is kinda confused about his feelings because she is Six made corporeal.

I am sure there is a good webcite with summaries somewhere, but if you want, I can try to give a run-down.

[ayn-rand-fan-13.livejournal.com]

Oooh, thanks. The whole Gaius thing is what was really confusing me, but I think I've almost got it now.

[koalathebear.livejournal.com]

I love your 2 seasons of BSG in a nutshell :D

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Heeee. It was a bit my biases centric, you think? Oh well, enough people mention Kara and Lee all over :P

[weissman.livejournal.com]

Hi First
Bob stands up straight nods head, salutes and says Hooah!
That was fantastic.
My main problem with this episode was character continuity on Adama. Adama goes from personally appoligizing for the attack on Sharon to contemplating doing something about 100 times worse. That just dosn't make sense at all. It was like his head is so far up her butt that it hasn't seen the light of day in a long time
As far as Helo, in my mind he is the one true Hero on the show. He has never compromised his honor or abandoned the women and the child he loves.
Helo=Hero (period)
BTW I am sure that if had asked Tyrol would have stood right next to him.
Anybody that thinks Sharons reactions were not normal are (as**holes) its that simple.

Bob W
Sharon Rocks
Helo Rocks

Bob W

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

My main problem with this episode was character continuity on Adama

I think that despite his apology in the earlier ep, Adama doesn't see Sharon as human. He thought (rightly) the rape was out of spite, she was cooperating. But the fetus is a danger (according to Roslin who he listens to), so he will have it done. Interestingly enough, he tells Helo and not Sharon about the fact. She isn't human after all, probably run his thoughts...

[weissman.livejournal.com]

I think I said this before
but the epiphany for Adama would be to realize that Sharon is human

[sabaceanbabe.livejournal.com]

The thing I'm starting to wonder about the miracle cure is... well, is it really a miracle cure? Yes, it seems so on the surface right now, with no subsequent episodes to leaven it, but what if the cancer comes back, or mutates in some way because of the Cylon blood?

I'm probably just trying to rationalize away one of my disappointments in this ep. Not that Roslin lived, because I, too, knew they wouldn't kill her yet, but that she is cured.

There were elements of this episode that I really loved, but there were also elements that just made me think, wow, I wish they hadn't done that.

btjm, ymmv ;)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Not that Roslin lived, because I, too, knew they wouldn't kill her yet, but that she is cured.


I too hope she isn't cured permanently and that this will come back to haunt her. I mean, there are interesting possibilities to go into in any event, but I'd like to see that quite a lot.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

the forced blood transfusion remindedme of nothing as much as the Nazi doctors bleeding Jewish children dry (literally) to use them as donors for the German soldiers

Except that given what the Cylons have done to the humans - i.e. genocide - it's more like a handful of Jewish survivors using the blood of the child of a German soldier and another Jewish survivor to save the Chief Rabbi and one of the few remaining survivors of the obliteration of their entire race and civilization. I think that's a fundamental problem right there - it's the CYLONS who have been all about wiping out the humans, not the other way around and it's much harder for me to decide that the humans now need to show they're "better" by showing compassion when they haven't RECEIVED any in turn, well, ever.

Helo loves Sharon and Sharon loves Helo, and I do not doubt that; but I still don't understand why Helo gets all surprised that not everyone else on the ship feels the same way about Sharon that HE does. Adama was right, IMO, that every time Sharon has acted to save people other than Helo, her self-interest has been at the bottom of it. She wants to make Helo happy and that's great; but she has absolutely no empathy with anyone else, and in the end, love is less fundamental to me about being human than the ability to feel empathy is.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

But my problem with the humanity's actions is that two wrongs don't make a right. The fact that cylons are conscienceless beasts doesn't mean that humans can behave that way. Otherwise we get Gina.

Can I understand the reasons? yes. Condone the action? Not so much.

love is less fundamental to me about being human than the ability to feel empathy is.

I don't know. To me they are about even.