There must have been a sale because they bought all the dysfunction there is - TPM ep 14 with subs.

[dangermousie]

They are officially the most dysfunctional couple I have ever shipped. Yes, shipped. Notice the past tense.

I really can't ship them after ep 14, if by ship you mean 'hope and wish for them to end up together in a happy life.' I find them incredibly interesting and emotionally involving separately, I find their dynamic fascinating and tragic and I cannot take my eyes off them. I can understand how SY ended up the way he is and even feel pity for the horrors that drove him to this act and place (and I do feel tremendous pity - his life was dismantled, his family killed and he tortured and hunted by her father - his family was destroyed by hers), but I cannot possibly ship her with him - it is impossible in every way, not just because of their families, but of what he has become - I think he's too destroyed to be with any woman, but especially her - considering who she is and what he's done (kidnapping!!! threatening to kill her!!!! shooting her father in front of her!!!). No way can I condone his actions even if I can understand why he did them., because what he did is despicable (even if he believed she was in on her father's plans and participated in conspiracy to destroy him, and he wants to believe that but I don't think he really does, which is what drives him even madder because I do think he hates himself). I mean, she may not love Myun but between him and SY, the former is the much better choice!



Myun did some questionable things but none towards her.

I mean, this is SY/SR reunion:








And that is the tragedy - Seung Yu and Se Ryung were once so sane, so compatible, so happy together. If his father picked Sooyang's side and agreed to the marriage proposal, they would have had a blissful wedded life. But not after this. After all that's happened, blissful existence, separately or together, is forever impossible. I do want them to rediscover sanity and happiness together for just a little bit, for their sakes - because I know they need it, but I know nothing between them can last - the world won't let them be, but neither will his trauma. Nor should it - some things should be relationship breakers - the fact that her family killed his is one. The fact that he kidnapped and threatened her is another, and a much bigger one because it involves the two of them, not their families. I mean, she still loves him after all that - she takes the arrow for him! and helps him escape






and he still loves her (which makes him hate himself the more - he's desperate for her to hate him and tries to get that result because than it would fit into a comfortable paradigm) because they are both beyond screwed-up, broken people but I cannot see them having a future. Also, let's face it, he should not be allowed to have her after what he did.






But I cried throughout the ep, I cried for them both - I cried for her because the man she loved so came back as a nightmare. And I cried for him because of what has been done to him, to turn the gentle, teasing, sweet-natured scholar into this monster. Her dignity and strength is greater than his damage though, greater than anything. SR >>>> everyone. The scene with the rings OMG.

























I do like the irony of the contrast between their first visit to the gisaeng house together and this. Or their first horse ride together and this. Also, the fact that their reunion is him kidnapping her and her trying to stab him to death (OMG, that girl is tough!) before she realizes who that is and goes into shock.






Here he is telling her he will kill her if she calls him "Seosangnim" again (that is what she used to call him when they were together). Clearly he's snapped beyond any hope of fixing:


















My favorite scene - so much emotion and pity and thwarted love and anger and regret everything mixed in. My favorite part was his pause when he sees the scar on her neck, remembers Myun telling him she tried to kill herself to protect him and does his best to push the thought aside.




















OK, enough with the tying up. Unless she is into major BDSM, you are not winning any OTP points here!





Ummm, yeah, that is why I don't think he should ever get her.



All his talk about killing her and he totally falls apart when she protects him from the arrow with his body. What's the Joseon equivalent of 'all hat, no cattle?'




You know who I do ship? Transgender gisaeng and that guard that rescued himself along with SY. They are adorable together!



Also, I like Sooyang and his wife as a couple - they have a very functional marriage.



I actually love Sooyang, evilness or not. Other factions would have totally done to his family what he did to theirs.

Comments

[cleobulle.livejournal.com]

SY shooting her father in front of her was the nail in the coffin for me when it came to their relationship. I mean, it was already impossible before, but when he released the arrow, I finally let go of the tiny hope that they might have some sort of HEA.

I agree that SY doesn't deserve to get her. He's done too much to her and her family. Her father killing his family was already bad enough but SR was innocent. Here, it's SY himself that's doing all this--and he gets even more tortured and dark in episodes 15 and 16.

When I was watching episode 14, I wondered all the while if SY had captured SR out of revenge or if deep down he didn't want her to marry another man. He seemed so focused on revenge and closed off to anything else that I was ready to dismiss my doubt but Seok Joo brought this very matter up in episode 16. And it shook SY right up. In the end, I think it's probably a combination of both. He sold this plan to himself with the revenge line but deep down, he really wanted to see SR again and prevent her from marrying another man. Oh SY....messed up doesn't even begin to describe it...

What we really need now to counter-balance Dark!SY is him seriously angsting over SR and even maybe saving her life. She's saved his (or tried to save his) numerous times already. I want to see him placing love above revenge at least once before the drama is over.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I wathed ep 15 and must say that even though he spent all that ep trying to drink himself into oblivion and offing members of her father's faction, that's actually an improvement over 14. It's less dark imo (which says a lot).

I think he did agonize over her - he seems to have spent the bulk of ep 15 flashbacking to 14, especially in that amazing scene where the gisaeng came on to him and everything she is doing is nightmare-mirrored by SR's actions in ep 14.

I think it would be great for him to save her life (though he already did do so multiple times in early eps, this was before he went off the deep end) but I have no idea who can threaten her other than his own allies, once her papa is king.

I, too, was really shaken by Seok Joo's comment to SY (and remember his flashbacking at one point to her saying about wanting to be his shadow before he kidnapped her) - he wants to believe it's only for revenge and he wants to believe she is evil because deep-down he is terrified of the knowledge that he still loves her (that is why the overreaction like when he yells he is going to gruesomely murder her whole family and then her - it's like he's overcompensating).

You know who SY is reminding me of a lot - Dae Gil. They both have the same thing where they were these young, idealistic, sweet-natured people whose world was horrifically destroyed and they managed to rebuild themselves only they are barely human as a price. (SY's case is even more stark because by the time we meet DG, he's had a number of years to get used to it all and thus is a bit healthier). And a person like that is really doomed - they've done too much and had too much done to them. Also, that is the reason that, while I pity him, I don't really crush on him, if it makes sense. There is a reason I, unlike a lot of fans, was Team tae Ha in Chuno, I really prefer my heroes to be able to emerge through hell with their humanity, however unrealistic it may be. (Of course, unlike DG and SY, someone like TH has a better chance simply because he was older and tougher when bad stuff happened, with a lot more experience under his belt).

Actually, while we are comparing, it also reminds me of Mawang, where I thought JJH's character was so destroyed precisely because he was the cossetted baby of the family and so when the family got destroyed, he went to pieces. That is pretty much SY - precisely because his family was so loving and functional, he's had no background of horror before to accustom him to this new reality. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I know SY is toast, but I do think SR could eventually move on. Not with Myun, who is way involved in all the bad stuff, but she is whole enough I can see her eventually recovering, years later.

Also, these eps confirmed Jung is the only good husband material in this.

[cleobulle.livejournal.com]

I wathed ep 15 and must say that even though he spent all that ep trying to drink himself into oblivion and offing members of her father's faction, that's actually an improvement over 14. It's less dark imo (which says a lot).

Lol! it does say a lot indeed! At least, now he's focused and somewhat more restrained. When he went after Sooyang right after his father died, he wasn't thinking and just reacted blindly.

The SR/gisaeng nightmare mix up got to me as well. I agree that his love for her terrifies him. He knows he shouldn't love her anymore but can't stop himself. He must feel like he's disloyal to his family and so goes overboard to compensate for it.

The Chuno/Mawang comparison does make sense. SY is a good mix of the two main characters of those dramas. Daegil's messed up side wasn't really delved into except for his obsessive love for UN though. As you say, by the time we meet him, it's been years and years. And I don't think he ever really blamed UN for what happened. After enough time had passed, he just wanted to find her and be with her. His ressemblance to SY to me comes more from the idealistic young nobleman turned blood-thirsty commoner thing. The dark revenge stuff comes from JJH's character in Mawang. And I think SY is even more messed up because in Mawang the culprits were given a chance to live whereas SY took it upon himself to kill his ennemies. He's not ready to give a chance to anyone yet.

His tunnel will be endless, I fear. Everyone is trying to stop him: Se Ryung, Seok Joo, Jong and his Professor, but as he said, he's come too far and he can't stop.

WithS2 has released the first 2 episodes of TPM and I've rewatched them to see if I should change some stuff in my French translation. It killed me to see SY then. We knew it would turn dark when we started watching the drama but going back to those "happy" times is even more shocking than I would have thought. PSH did a total 180 with his character there. Great acting. It is true that the old SY no longer exists in this world.

I don't know if SR would be able to move on though. If we take the character as it is written, then I'd say yes--and she did already prove it when she thought he was dead after the ship sank. But I don't think the writers will let her. If SY dies before her, I can only see her either dying herself or living alone and waiting to be reunited with him in death.

Do you think there's any chance of having them both alive at the end? That would be the most surprising ending they could devise. PSH himself said it would me more appropriate to have a tragic ending. But then why have a "false" SY already set up to die so that the real one could quietly disappear if he ever chose to? Having the cowardly guy from the slave episode proclaim himself Kim Jong Seo's son can't have been just a whim from the writers, right? Gah, and here I thought I'd managed to kill the last bit of hope for a HEA so that I wouldn't be devastated. There's no cure for me, i'm afraid.

About SY saving her life...I think it would come about because of his allies. The Professor is already being set up to lead a rebellion (like what really happened in history) and she could be in danger. But I'm not sure if the writers will go this route or if they'll consider that SR almost dying because of the arrow was enough.

I still wish that Sooyang becoming king had happened 2 or 3 episodes ago. There could be so many stories to tell now that in addition to everything else, SR will be a Princess. As if we didn't have enough angst already! :o)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yes, went he went after Sooyang in front of all his guards, he wasn't even thinking - he was wounded and borderline delirious and just saw his father's head displayed as entertainment. Not that he is a much better planner when more collected - if SR didn't want to stay and help him/heal him/etc, she totally would have gotten away before the confrontation at the end of 14 - remember when he woke up and she was gone to fetch water? Though I suppose it shows that deep down, on a very basic level, he trusts her despite not wanting to - and he hates himself snd acts out against her even more when she shows she is not evil he wants her to be because that makes what he is doing worse.

I am glad that TPM doesn't seem to get an extention because I hate those but I do think it's weird there are no rumors of one. PtB is getting one, and its ratings are in mid-teens, respectable but nothing to write home about. TPM is over 20 and over 23 (!!!) in Seoul so you'd think extension would be at least rumored. I wonder if it's like City Hunter where there really had to have been a reason for no extention, writer or actor related.

Chance of them being alive at the end? How would it work though. Sooyang rules for a very long time and very successfully and I cannot see (nor do I expect) SY letting go of trying to avenge his family, nor would Sooyang let him alone if he finds him alive (I never even thought about 'fake' SY coming into play before but that IS an interesting idea). I suppose they could run away to China with A Kang and sis-in-law but I don't know. My hopes are pretty much at 0.003%. What I really want is for them to be happy and for him to rediscover his humanity before inevitable doom.

One thing I really love is how good SY is with the sword - it's such a subtle class indicator. It's not like SY was in the military, but he was creme de la creme of the aristocracy so of course he got taught extensively and well. So all those thugs who learned on the street are really no match (makes me think of Chuno and Tae Ha and Purple Vader making mincemeat on non-career military people. Though Dae Gil...hmmm, not like he learned in any school but hard knocks.)

Yes, he is much farther gone than JJH in Mawang. He shares the same brilliant person/wasted potential/a lot of loving people trying to save him and failing thing. Only in Mawang, if JJH gave up, nobody would come after him and behead him.

I always thought DG was very messed up (a lot of his slave hunting, to me, was a sort of revenge against UN's brother - a restoration of natural order). It was largely internal by then. And I agree, he didn't blame UN - he really couldn't. I think that was his hope, and that is why it is so tragic - if he found her and she still loved him, they could have healed each other and be happy. For SY, SR is intimately tied into his damage so...

Remember the scene where UN's half brother ran himself onto DG's knife? The arrow at Sooyang was SY's moment like that, the moment I should be going 'that is over, he will never get a chance to be with her now' but I was not because Sooyang is very much alive. OK, I am clearly a hopeless optimist.

[cleobulle.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, SY is the worst K-drama hero I've seen when it comes to planning revenge. SR practically took him by the end and guided him through "How to kidnap a person 101". To be fair though, at least he'd originally planned to kidnap her "the easy way" when she was all alone the day before her wedding. He does have some sense at least when it comes to these things :o)

Yeah, the no rumor thing about an extension is strange.Either the writers are positive they can't stretch the story past 24 épisodes or, as you say, the actors have previous committments.

What I really want is for them to be happy and for him to rediscover his humanity before inevitable doom.

That's my wish as well. Realistically, I can't see them having any lasting happiness. Too many things have happened. But since this is a drama, I can't help myself but hope against hope. SY shows cracks in his tough guy facade already. Him meeting his sis in law and AK in episode 17 will soften him a bit more. Wanna bet that by the time sis in law explains how SR helped, SR will have tactfully withdrawn from the scene after seeing their tearful reunion? That would be just the way to torture the viewer with practically 0 SY/SR interaction.

Only in Mawang, if JJH gave up, nobody would come after him and behead him.

Yeah, sucks to be SY. He doesn't really have an out except dying (although that might change if fake SY comes into play).

Remember the scene where UN's half brother ran himself onto DG's knife? The arrow at Sooyang was SY's moment like that, the moment I should be going 'that is over, he will never get a chance to be with her now' but I was not because Sooyang is very much alive. OK, I am clearly a hopeless optimist.
I was reminded of that exact moment in Chuno as well! Except that I did think that was really it for SR and SY, poor things. Her father didn't die but SY did release the arrow. I'm not clear onw how SR is feeling about her father right now. She doesn't trust him anymore, that's clear. But does she still hold a bit of affection for him or not? I hope we're going to see her a bit conflicted in the future. I actually wouldn't want to see her turn completely away from him, even after what he has done. We'll see.

And I agree, he didn't blame UN - he really couldn't. I think that was his hope, and that is why it is so tragic - if he found her and she still loved him, they could have healed each other and be happy.
Yes, that's it exactly. And that's why it was so heartbreaking for me that they didn't get to be together. The *could* have had a happy life together. They were both faithful and devoted to the other

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I keep hoping too!

See, to me the difference between Chuno and TPM situations is huge because in the latter there was no death. OK, am eternal optimist.

I forgot

[cleobulle.livejournal.com]

I was watching the Darksmurf's subs for some episodes and they translated the lyrics of some of the songs.

One of them goes something like this: It was not our fate to be together in this life, so will we be allowed to be together after we die?

Yeah...

At least we can't say we weren't forewarned!

Re: I forgot

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Sort of tangential, but I have to say the soundtrack is amazing.

Re: I forgot

[sanaenam.livejournal.com]

The soundtrack is fricking amazing! The piece Fate is so great. Until that song, I'd never been so frantic to find an instrumental soundtrack. I hum it all the time, even find myself finger-conducting in random moments. It's my kdrama version of John Williams' Star Wars theme.

I'm a happy puppy because I now have that piece.

One thing though. I wish composers would come up with a title other than Fate or Destiny. I've several "Fate"s and "Destiny"s from Kdrama:

1. King and the Clown
2. Swallow the Sun
3. Full House

or songs with "Fate" or "Destiny" in the title:

1. A Love to Kill
2. Iljimae
3. Iris

Re: I forgot

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I never thought about the fate thing but rofl, you are right.

[sanaenam.livejournal.com]

All I can say is that MCW is doing a knock out job. It's lovely to see her having come so far from her Painter of the Wind days, when she showed promise that she'd one day deliver like this. My eyes teared up just from the screen caps.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

She really is wonderful in this. I've only seen her in Brilliant Legacy before and the difference is startling.

[once-a-weaver.livejournal.com]

"Also, I like Sooyang and his wife as a couple - they have a very functional marriage."

I actually love that too. It feels very genuine.

(Don't mind me, just going through old posts now that I can :)