My two cents on the latest fandom kerfuffle

[dangermousie]

a.k.a RPF=Real Person Fiction.

First off, I am sure there are many genuinely lovely people who read/write it, but speaking purely personally, I don't read it, don't write it, and that my main feeling is puzzlement.

As in "why?" What's the point? If you write a fanfic about Anakin Skywalker, or Hermione Granger, or the crew of Firefly, you have enough information: background, character, plot, interactions, to base your fanfic on. You definitely have all the info needed to extrapolate (that is why there are "in character" fanfics and OOC). You just take characters you already know and love (or hate) and explore the situations and possibilities that haven't been explored on the show. Well and good, right?

But when you write RPF, you basically only know what the "character" looks like. I mean, unless you are Orlando Bloom's butler, or Ewan McGregor's secretary, and write RPF about them on your day off, you are unlikely to know anything about your subjects, other than their appearance and the basic facts in magazines. You don't have ANY info for a fanfic. And you know, how fanfics are "in character" or not? Well, RPFs are by definition not in character, because you don't know the character. Let's face it, in real life, the chances of Viggo Mortensen running off to marry Orlando Bloom in a touching ceremony in Vermont are non-existent. So, since you are completely inventing the "plot" or your RPF and inventing the "actors'" characteristics, then in reality, you are having the actors play yet another role. This time Hayden Christensen is not a lightsaber-wielding Jedi, this time he is an emo boy who meets a cute waitress in a cafe. Neither of these is HC, and so why not write a normal original story, and just say that your character looks like HC, or Liam Neeson, or "insert name here."

You are not writing about a real person as you know nothing about them. You are writing about a fictional character who happens to look like an object of your fancy, no different than a role in a movie. So why drag in real people when there is little to no connection to their reality, by the very nature of your disconnect from them? It's not as if the story would suffer any. In fact, people like me, who find RPF instinctually "ick" might actually give it a chance if it was a regular story.

If anyone wants to explain the allure of RPF to me, I'd be really curious (I am not being sarcastic here) as I singularly fail to see any purpose in it: I mean why would you read an RPF written by someone else? If you write a fanfic about Veronica Mars, people might read and enjoy it because you and I and the rest of VM viewers have a fairly compatible view of who VM is and what she does (since we have the same comprehensive shared data from the show). If you write a fanfic about Justin Timberlake, what relevance does it have to other people, and why would anyone read it, since there is no "common version" of JT out there, since there is no common pool of data, and you are creating completely fictional and non-shared characteristics of him for your fanfic.

Basically, there are nice people out there who like RPF, and they must have some reasons. I am just curious as to why because any appeal of it completely escapes me (I have "invasion of privacy" issues about it as well, but that's another matter entirely).

I am not being snide, or snarky, or mean. I am honestly puzzled and would like various points of view on the matter, both from pro and con RPF folks, on why RPF readers (more so than the writers, I can see this as a wish-fullfillment thingy perhaps) like it.

Comments

[winterspel.livejournal.com]

I have serious issues with RPFs, especially things like Daniel Radcliffe/Tom Felton RPF slash. That's getting into child porn territory. *shudders*

Generally speaking, I don't get it.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Ugh. Underage RPF is sick sick sick sick.

I have an instinctual aversion to RPF, I admit, but there are people out there who obviously like it, and some of them are perfectly nice and normal so I am trying to figure out if there is some appeal I just don't get, or what the rationale is. Because any moral issues aside, it just strikes me as really a dull thing for anyone else to read what is really a private fantasy.

[koalathebear.livejournal.com]

What are you doing? :)

Runs far away from the impending explosion as far as her stubby marsupial legs can carry her

;)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I am brave? Or stupid? :P

I tried to write the message as impartially as I could. Because I don't want to offend anyone (unless they write underage, involving animals RPF. I'll insult those). I am just trying to understand the phenomenon...

[girlintheattic.livejournal.com]

I really don't enjoy RPF, it makes me very uncomfortable, but that's not to say I think there's something *wrong* with it. If someone enjoys writing/reading it I don't think thats morally bad at all. The impression I always got was that the main allure was the idea that strong on-screen chemistry *must* translate into off-screen chemistry and I do understand that to an extent - I always prefer to think that all the characters on my shows really get on and love each other. It's just nice to imagine them all having fun together, y'know?

Still, as I mentioned above - I can't read it. It makes me feel invasive and I can't get into it.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

The impression I always got was that the main allure was the idea that strong on-screen chemistry *must* translate into off-screen chemistry and I do understand that to an extent - I always prefer to think that all the characters on my shows really get on and love each other. It's just nice to imagine them all having fun together, y'know?


Thanks for the explanation!

See, I can understand a person writing RPF. Not my cup of tea at all, but I can see that. It's just people enjoying reading other people's highly individual fantasies (as they have to be, by default, as everyone creates their own personal version of Harrison Ford or what not, since no one knows him), that strikes me as unusual...

[minerva-fan.livejournal.com]

I've never understood it, either. To be honest, it always made me a little uncomfortable--like it's an invasion of privacy or something. Even if everybody who reads it knows it's totally fictional, I can't help but wonder how the person would feel if they stumbled across a fic like that.

I know I'd be freaked out if I was an actor or celebrity, and found that peopel were writing stories about me having sex with other celebrities. But then, maybe I'm just wierd that way.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

But then, maybe I'm just wierd that way.

If you are weird that way, then so am I. It would be pretty unsettling.

[koalathebear.livejournal.com]

Oops forgot to add my 2c.

All of fan fiction itself is a grey area legally to start with and privacy laws differ in different jurisdictions.

For myself, I don't read RPF. If other people want to read and write it then fine.

Then again, I don't generally read a lot of fan fiction generally! I'm just very good at scrolling.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh, of course fan fiction is questionable legally.

As to privacy laws, I doubt you could get someone for writing RPF. I am talking more about my "moral" stance on it, rather than legal consequences. I feel it's intrusive, I doubt you can get punished for it.

People can read and write anything they want, and I am not going to find their lj and flame them (unless it's underage or incest or what not), I am just puzzled why people would enjoy reading RPF, and hoping someone would have a good explanation for it.

We'll see :)

[sabaceanbabe.livejournal.com]

I can understand the occasional insert-yourself-as-Mary-Sue/favorite-actor fantasy, but RPF? As in sharing that fantasy with everyone and their brother? Or even a select group of friends? *shrug* I don't get that.

As for the favorite-actor/favorite-actress RPF, I don't get that, either. But then, I don't have to. It isn't my cup of tea, I don't plan to either read it or write it, and so it really doesn't matter to me in the great scheme of things.

What I really don't understand is the kerfluffle surrounding it. It doesn't matter to me if someone likes it or doesn't. Their like/dislike of RPF is only one small facet of that person and will not make or break my like/dislike of that person. Now, if there were other factors involved...

Never mind. Now I'm babbling.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

No, it totally makes sense to me (what you said). The thought of getting so worked up about it (pro or con) is really...exhausting.

[valarltd.livejournal.com]

It depends on the real people involved. Current celebrities, no, not interesting. It's the stuff of Tiger Beat and 16 magazine, and appropriate only for swooning tweens. (hides her vintage copies with Donny and Marie and the Bay City Rollers)


But writing historical fiction about semi-legendary characters? that's a different kettle of fish. That's The Lion in Winter, Camelot, Alexander, The Ten Commandments, "Rome," "I Claudius," Inherit the Wind and The Greatest Story ever Told.

(I'm in a RPG with a semi-RPF relationship at the moment. The character is either assumed to be legendary and tacked on or is so vague and has been dead for 2400 years. No problem)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

See, I can understand historical fiction when there is a lot of info on the person. People write novels about Alexander the Great or Napoleon or whatever all the time. There's plenty of info and usually it's not the sole goal of the story to have them get it on :)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I read some of it (where I thought it made sense) in the music fandom.

The thing about actors is that we usually don't know as much about their lives and/or their lives aren't all that interesting. At least not compared to the characters they play. (and when we see them as characters we know much more about the characters personal lives, yearnings and feelings) Which is why I personally never cared much about actor rpf.

But if you are fan of a music artist, whether it's a boyband or a rock star and you want to fantasize about them you don't have the option of an artificial personality/character.

Not to mention that music star lives are interesting, going on tour, crazy fans, arguments of artistic value vs. commercialism, maintaining a relationship in the spotlight, album flops...

Another factor is that when actors are selling something, they are usually selling a character, whether it's Anakin or Rahul or whatever. Musicians on the other hand usually sell a jazzed up version of themselves. Oh look at me, woefull angsty artist!

Of course you could write an original fiction about a hugely famous boyband having artistic differences. Or you could just go ahead and say that it's the Beatles. Or Depeche Mode. Or N'Sync.

A whole different aspect is of course fiction on any number of historical figures. From Ceasar to Napolean to Kinsey. Something that is rampant in literature and movies. So why should it suddenly be inappropriate just because laymans are doing it?

Again, my brush with rpf was rather peripherical because some people I knew were writing it. I do consider it an odd bird (and as in all fandoms, I have issues with people who don't bother to follow canon at all). But it's not something I would consider unfathomable.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Adding on about there not being any fixed canon for rpf.

Well for one there often isn't just one canon for non rpf either. People often have vastly different interpretations of characters. So some Buffy is a whiny abusive bitch, to others she's mainly a kickass heroine, to others she's the mega angsty darma queen. Usually you get at least two different versions of a character. One from the lovers POV and one from the haters POV. It's usually based on people prefering certain aspects of canon and ignoring others.

I disagree that rpf doesn't have a canon. I'm sure for fans it does. Take Justin T. Fans that follow his career probably know everything about him, that's where he grew up, that's when he joined the Mickey Mouse Club, that's when he met so and so, that's when he went on his first tour, that was his first single, that's when important relative so and so died. The canon is there, in the interviews and similar things.

You example about Orlando Bloom starting to date a sweet young waitress is obviously going to be a sucky story. Why? Because it would be the same as Anakin or Legolas or Captain Kirk falling head over heels in love with a sweet actress. So it's basically sucky because it's a Mary Sue, not because it's rpf or not-rpf.

[aliterati.livejournal.com]

First point: I have no idea why people read RPF, and I think it's weird, too. Writing, fine--I understand that people might get baseless attachments to people they don't know, such that they would transmit them into some kind of fantasy scenarios. (After all, people get crushes on celebrities all the time, which is just as rationally flimsy.) But I really have no idea why someone would read someone else's RPF fanfic, unless it was for anthropological interest of some sort. (I.e. seeing how other people view this person you care about, so that then maybe you can congratulate yourself on understanding him better.)

But my second point: I think people are trying to be really PC here with all their disclaimers about how: just because they write RPS doesn't mean I'm judging them as a person, I'm sure they're really nice and we could be best friends and there's no universal moral weight in fanfic writings, etc. Because I'll be honest: I can't help deriving at least some moral judgment out of RPS fanfic, and I think that's totally valid. I don't care how nice and sweet and animal-friendly the writer is in real life. The point is that, in writing RPS, I think the author performs an invasion of privacy that as very disrespectful, objectifying, and really a bit too self-indulgent. (Which, considering all fandom is self-indulgement, is based on quite a sliding scale of self-indulgence already.) The celebrity, like him or not, is a human being. He is not just a petty object in your imagination. Obviously, RPS hurts no one, but it does hint at some failure of one's brain to register another human beings as subjects in them selves, rather than just as objects/instruments for your own imagination. I think that this is a flaw morally, aesthetically, and rationally--but particularly morally.

And I don't go by the system that just because someone writes something I find immoral doesn't let me extend my like/dislike any further on the person in general. The point is, as the fanfic proves, our morals don't match up. You can't separate fanfic morality from 'general morality'--that part of them that makes them enjoy/accept RPS is something that must speak of a greater moral principle within them, and it is a principle of which I personally disapprove. A moral judgment based on entertainment preferences is really just as valid as a moral judgment based on any other action in real life.

This is not to say that all RPS writers are evil and kill kittens in their spare time. I'm sure that many of them are very nice and may in some ways be much more 'moral' or 'principled' than I would just myself to be. If they were nice people otherwise, I'm sure I'd like them fine. But the fact of that fanfic would still always indicate to me that our morals work in different ways, and there is some very true part of the person that I won't be able to like.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I know why I love you :)

Honestly, the objectification is the most bizarre part of it. The blurring between reality and fantasy is rather...solipcistic. I am trying to stay away from moral judgment statements out of self-reservation (my flame-retardant suit isn't 100% proof), but my gut feelings are another matter.

[poisontaster]

I'm with the "I have serious issues" camp. I'm not condemning anyone, and I certainly wouldn't presume to tell anyone what to read or write...especially given that my material isn't to everyone's taste.

I do think it's an invasion of privacy. I do think it's a little strange to be so invested in the fictional life of a real person, one who you don't know anything about, really, and probably never will. In my mind, it borders a little on stalkerish behavior, and for that reason kind of squicks me. But I recognize that's personal.

OTOH, I HAVE read a couple of RPFs, trying to understand the phenomenon behind them, and my thoughts mostly ran along the line of, "this would be really good if it was original fiction...which there's NO reason it couldn't be. But as an RPF? Squicky."

I'd like to believe I'll give anything a shot, just to see, and there are some really talented people writing RPF, but I can't get past the nasty factor. It just disturbs me.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I'd like to believe I'll give anything a shot, just to see, and there are some really talented people writing RPF, but I can't get past the nasty factor. It just disturbs me.

I tried a couple of RPFs out of curiousity, and it just squicked me. Just...they are real people, not artificial constructs for our amusement. it felt horribly intrusive and odd.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Darn, I forgot to answer your most basic question (sorry for spamming your lj yet again).

WHY? Why do people write it.

My theory? People write about what they know, what occupies them, what they care about. WE, you and me, we obsess about tv shows and movies. Other people might be indifferent to the visual medium. Instead they care about music. Where we spend the evening watching the latest Veronica Mars, they go shop for the super seldom rough cut very first demo tape CD of the artist they adore. They spend thousands of dollars to follow an artist around the country and go to not just one but several of their concerts (something that I have NEVER understood but that is apparently very wide spread among music fans). Where we buy background books on the Making of The Lord Of The Rings, they purchase countless sanctioned and non-sanctioned biographies. Where we squee about character A and character B finally admitting their feelings they writhe in extacy over artist C delivering a particularly awesome singing note or dance move.

Basically if it is what they occupy their time with then that's what they are going to write about. Not everyone likes movies/tv.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I understand the writing part, more or less (even though I don't agree). But why anyone would want to read it definitely escapes me.

[danceswithwords.livejournal.com]

You are not writing about a real person as you know nothing about them. You are writing about a fictional character who happens to look like an object of your fancy, no different than a role in a movie. So why drag in real people when there is little to no connection to their reality, by the very nature of your disconnect from them?

This is exactly what I have never gotten about RPF. Since the writer doesn't know the actor, the character they're writing about has the actor's name and face but is every bit as fictional as the character the actor plays on a show. But whereas I find the character on the show interesting, I have no great interest in or inclination to read about some random fictional character that looks like an actor and shares some basic biographical history.

I think this is a tricky area because it's something that some people find kind of vaguely icky and invasive of the actor's privacy--I know I do. There's something a little too close to treating the actor like a poseable doll about it for my taste. But at the same time, I am also profoundly uncomfortable judging people for indulging in a taste that I don't happen to share but that they enjoy and that doesn't do any harm. Mostly, though, I just don't get why the fiction itself is at all interesting. Perhaps that's because I am very character-focused; I want to read about the characters, but could care less about the actors, the details of their personal lives, etc.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I want to read about the characters, but could care less about the actors, the details of their personal lives, etc.

Exactly. The thing is, supposing the RPFer is very talented, talented enough to write what would amount to engaging original characters. Why call them (e.g.) Jamie Bamber or Elijah Wood? Why not write a completely original story (which is what is pretty much is anyway).

[katranna.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see if you get ANY "I like RPS because" answers. So far, all you have is people congratulating themselves on being so far above such icky stuff as RPS, and while I'm sure this circle jerk is very pleasant for the participants, it's not very enlightening.

Anyway, I have a question. I usually don't do RPS, but as you might know, I'm rather tickled by the idea of writing Marc Bolan/Syd Barrett slash. Both because it's a fantasy, and because I think if I treat them textually, it's possible (even if technically it was extremely unlikely).

Marc Bolan is dead. Syd Barrett had a meltdown about 30 years ago, and has basically not ventured outside his apartment since, refusing to go by the name of "Syd" anymore and basically divorcing himself from that persona. How would you classify this? It almost seems to be skirting the line of historical slash to me.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Circle jerk? ROFL!

But see, I am getting responses from people that explain or like things like RPF: you for one, thelana, valarltd. Also, girlintheattic is not an RPF fan, but she did have some really interesting and useful explanations on why. Etc. So it's not a self-contratulatory pattern.

I'm rather tickled by the idea of writing Marc Bolan/Syd Barrett slash. Both because it's a fantasy, and because I think if I treat them textually, it's possible (even if technically it was extremely unlikely).

It fits into the main body of my post. Why? It didn't happen, why not write an original story with characters that share the characteristics about MB and SB that you like and have original characteristics of their own (as they indubitably will in your fic, RPF or not). Why do they have to be named MB and SB, anyway?

[plazmah.livejournal.com]

I don't have much more to add to the thorough discussion you've got going on here ;) But I will mention that while I neither read or write RPS, I don't really have a problem with the majority of the tamer fics one comes across. People are, on the whole, weird, They get obssessed and drawn into the lives of real people. And yes, maybe there's some kind of mental disconnect in recognizing that these are people, not characters.

Oops, wait. I take back the whole 'I don't read or write RPS' thing. I think I've still got some SRK/Kajol AU fic on my computer somewhere.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

People are, on the whole, weird, They get obssessed and drawn into the lives of real people

Ain't that the truth? :)

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing I believe that's going on with RPFs. I've read some and the ones I've read are very well written, so I can't just pawn it off to laziness on the authors part for not writing a character who just looks like the actor. What I think most of it has to do with is A.) how we turn actors into our "ideals" a lot of times (a lot of people do this and this is why I've often said I'd never really want to meet one of my on screen crushes because it makes them "human" and no longer my ideal) and B.) the author is really enamoured with the actor and a look alike just isn't good enough.

Reason B is easily explained. If you're really hung up on an actor someone who just looks like Orlando Bloom just isn't going to cut it. The most obvious reason is that putting Orlando is your story means you have instant fanbase (as someone else mentioned), the other reason being that the author wants to Mary Sue with the ACTOR, not with a look alike.

Reason A is a little more intangible. To a certain degree I know a lot of people who will hear no wrong about their favorite actor, no matter WHAT they may be reported to be like in real life. I admit to not liking actors if they come across a certain way in interviews or in gossip (and even I'm willing to forgive some of Hayden's sins). Therefore it goes to figure that writing about a celebrity gives you access to make their personality how you fantasize. It's the actor a lot of people are in love with, not the character, or if the actor plays multiple characters you like it's the best of all worlds. With the Mary Sue angle, you (the author) are suddenly living the dream of being not only famous by association, but also of having the "dream man" looks, wit and personality.

That all being said, I'll add that I find RPF to be intrusive because if I were Orlando I wouldn't want people pairing me up with their Mary Sues and all the kink that entails, but I do understand the authors usage of that outlet. I personally do it by writing original stories with characters who seem to look an uncanny amount like certain actors, but for some people that just isn't enough. It's the ACTOR they want to be perfect, not the character.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It's the actor a lot of people are in love with, not the character, or if the actor plays multiple characters you like it's the best of all worlds. With the Mary Sue angle, you (the author) are suddenly living the dream of being not only famous by association, but also of having the "dream man" looks, wit and personality.


Yes, exactly. It does seem really odd to me that others would want to read something that by definition is a very personal fantasy.

[lazypadawan.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I loathe real person fic!

What separates real person fic from say a t.v. movie about the life of Marilyn Monroe is that one at least tries to make an attempt to chronicle factual events and capture the true personality of the subject even with some "artistic license," while the other doesn't give a rat's patootie. (There have been some bad biopics that are more about artistic license than anything else, but that's another story.) It's about getting Orlando Bloom to do what the author wants. The author knows almost nothing about Orlando, but she doesn't care. If she thinks it would be hot to see Orlando in bed with a llama, then that's what's gonna happen.

It's disturbing to so many people because there's a belief a line is being crossed. These stories are about real, living people, not fictional characters. Nobody would want others writing kinky stories about them or having them do things they would never do. There have been libel and defamation suits about stuff like this. I've seen some truly creepy stories about Ewan McGregor's wife being killed so that some Mary Sue can take her place. In others, he has a terrible marriage with his wife, cursing at her and stuff, when along comes Mary Sue. That's disgusting.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It's about getting Orlando Bloom to do what the author wants. The author knows almost nothing about Orlando, but she doesn't care. If she thinks it would be hot to see Orlando in bed with a llama, then that's what's gonna happen.


Exactly. People hardly write well-researched plausible RPF. It's all about getting the person of your choice with another person of your choice. Which? Sleazy, IMO.

I've seen some truly creepy stories about Ewan McGregor's wife being killed so that some Mary Sue can take her place. In others, he has a terrible marriage with his wife, cursing at her and stuff, when along comes Mary Sue. That's disgusting.

Ugh. Really? That's just sick.

[antiqueskies.livejournal.com]

This isn't new... It's been around fandom as long as I have (going on five years now), probably longer...

I dislike it though. It's just creepy. Especially the 'ships. Oh man. Weirdness.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, how DO you pick the ships? *boggles*