Cain, Kane, and the doomed lovers of "Lady Jane"

[dangermousie]

What do these topics have in common? Nothing, as far as I can see.

I was thinking about how much I love the character of Admiral Cain on Battlestar. Not because she is someone I'd want to be in the 100 mile radius of, but because I think it's wonderful that RM & crew created someone who is not a Twirly McMustache villain, but someone all of whose actions, looked at in a certain light are justifiable.


1. Shooting her XO for disobeying a direct order? It's mutiny in time of war, and it is definitely punishable by death. Cain is within her rights.

2. Reassigning Apollo, Starbuck etc from under Adama's command? According to the logs they are troublemakers, and Adama IS too closely tied to them. Good military discipline.

3. Ignorning Roslin and the civilians?If any cituation would justify martial law, this would be it. So Cain exists in a de facto situation of this, and just ignores the civilians. She (unlike Adama) doesn't seem to need them for supplies, after all, so no need to be nice.

4. Ordering battles that seem to be very high risk? What else has she to do: she doesn't know about Earth or have civilians to protect. Plus, they are obviously not suicidal since a large chunk of Pegasus is still just fine.

5. Rape and torture of Gina? To Cain, Gina is not a person, she is a robot, a toaster. Can you rape a toaster? Nope. All she knows of Cylon humanoids is that they are robots, they destroyed home, and took out crewmen of her ship. They aren't human so why not use any means necessary to get info? An also, she seems to push her crew really hard, and they need to relax hard, so why not relax in a "harmless" fashion? Pegasus doesn't seem to have very many women (though it does have), and the guys must be frustrated.

6. Helo and Tyrol courtmartialled and sentenced to death? The did kill an officer during the execution of his duties to protect an enemy.

Now, of course, none of the above is "Cain for President" material. After all there are plenty of counterarguments:

1. XO disobeyed a high-risk, suicidal order because he didn't want crew to get killed. At the very worst, one could order him to step down.

2. She did promise Adama to stay out of his hair. Adama obviously functioned OK with all these crew members. And there should be stuff in the logs about all the great stuff Apollo, Starbuck etc did.

3. Now that they found civilians, and hope, shouldn't they revert to civilian form of government? Otherwise, as Apollo pointed out in Bastille Day, there is no authority for Cain's authority either.

4. Suicidal strikes? How about trying to preserve life of your crewmen?

5. Enemy or not, human or not, Gina is clearly sentient, and after a time, torture clearly stopped being for info (she is catatonic) and became for fun. That is sick and wrong.

6. Said officer was torturing and raping someone who was already clearly cooperating and being a complete sadist for the heck of it.

By the point of the above is I love that there are justifications for her behavior, it's not cut and dried.

In other news, I am slowly rewatching VM and got to "Return of the Kane"



Just rewatched "Return of the Kane" as part of my rewatching of the Season 1.

It's such an excellent episode, but I find it almost unwatchable because the abuse part of the storyline freaks me out so much, especially now that I know it, and now that I know more of Logan and love his character. It's really significant that Logan who is always really forward and in your face is so utterly at a loss and scared utterly with his father, and only with his father. It's almost an instinctual thing, he can't control it. Freaks me out. Especially when in this ep you really do see the wonderful relationship Veronica has with her Dad, and how much Duncan's father loves him (and after finishing the season, you realize just how true that is).

In completely unrelated news, I am rewatching Lady Jane, a doomed period romance with very young Helena Bonham Carter and Cary Elwes. They are very young, and very beautiful, and very in love, and very "head on the chopping block." HBC is of course the young doomed 9-day queen and the Dread Pirate Roberts is her husband Gilford Dudley. I am an utter sap, but this movie always makes me sniffle and feel so bad for Lady Jane.

Comments

[koalathebear.livejournal.com]

Oh Helena Bonham Carter was gorgeous in that movie. Cary Elwes .... ah he used to be so dreamy but ..... he's aged so badly. He's got Julian Sands syndrome. *sob*

Helena Bonham Carter is one of my favourite actresses despite people always making fun of her for her 'period' pieces. She was GORGEOUS in 'Wings of the Dove' which is one of my favourite 'tragic' movies. She's been in her fair share of doozies though. Have you ever seen. Ahem. "A Hazard of Hearts" which was based on .... a Barbara Cartland novel. No wonder it was so appalling .....

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, whatever Care Elwes has been taking, I'd recommend staying away from it.

A Hazard of Hearts" which was based on .... a Barbara Cartland novel. No wonder it was so appalling .....


I've heard of it. Isn't Hugh Grant a highwayman in it? It sounds so appalling I simply must seek it out!

[koalathebear.livejournal.com]

I don't remember Hugh Grant, but it is simply awful. Really!
http://www.trashcity.org/BLITZ/BLIT0345.HTM

Admittedly that's the first time I found out that the name 'Wrotham' is supposed to be pronounced 'root em' which sounds positively rude - for an Aussie anyway ....... I'd always pronounced it: "roth umm'.. I did learn something from it I suppose :)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

So there was more than ode BC adaptation *is scarred* and High Grant was in another one. *giggle*

[morwen_peredhil]

Ooh, I love Lady Jane!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It's a movie I loved when I was younger and I found actually really fun to rewatch. Still gorgeous (though CE's 1980s hair a bit distracting).

[girlintheattic.livejournal.com]

I love 1x06 but I totally get what you mean about unwatchable.
For me, the distinction between a good show that I really like and a show is *mine* and I love, is whether I can bear to watch the more painful episodes again, even if they're brilliantly done. If it's *my* show then watching the characters really suffer is just unbearable and I have to skip over the really painful parts for weeks afterwords because I can't handle it!

One prime example of this is Farscape, I don't know if you know the series, I have never been able to watch the season 3 finale since that first time - even though I think it's one of the best episodes the show ever did. Gah! Long comment - sorry :)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I am a huge Farscape fan and Season finales for Seasons 2 and 3 just kill me. You get to the point where you empasize with the character so much it ceases to be fun and you just watch through your fingers.

With VM 1.06, it's that feeling of dread the whole ep, because you know what's coming and you just want to stop and peer toguh your fingers until it ends.

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

I do so love young Cary Elwes, before he got fat and not British. Dred Pirate Roberts was my dream man (I think it was a lot of girls dream man, along with Christian Bale's Laurie from Little Women). I feel I need to watch this movie for the young Elwes quotient, but here's my deal, Jane HATED Gilford from everything I've read, descirbing him as a bully and tried to talk her family out of making her marry him. Unfortunately for poor Jane her mother was an absolute monster who aside from being flat out abusive to her daughter, also willingly sacrificed her in an attempt at getting more power and then tried to force the issue while Jane was being held in prison, forcing Mary to execute her to show power. Jane is incredibly sympathetic because she was used as a pawn and thrown away by her family just as quickly. I suppose the Gilford love story angle was just the directors way of saying "see, SEE! TRAGIC!".

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, but the Jane+Gilford=true luv 4evr is a really common fic misconception. The very famous 19th century novel by Ainsworth, "The towerof London" has it, even Twain alludes to it in "The Prince and the Pauper." Of course there is that carving by Gilford of "Jane" in his cell in the Tower (which has been pointed out is his Mum's name as well). So I am cutting the movie makers some slack on this one.

[grace-om.livejournal.com]

Said officer was torturing and raping someone who was already clearly cooperating and being a complete sadist for the heck of it.

If one believes that the bio-cylons are no more than machines, then this is the biggest problem: if you take pleasure from sexually and physically abusing a machine what does it say about you? What does it do to you?

I would *hate* to be a woman on Pegasus and have to wonder just how sick my male crew-mates are.

Nonetheless, I am finding myself ever more fascinated by Cain, and how she might have mentally gotten to the place where she is at the time we meet her.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

If one believes that the bio-cylons are no more than machines, then this is the biggest problem: if you take pleasure from sexually and physically abusing a machine what does it say about you? What does it do to you?



Exactly. You shouldn't torture prisoners for fun not as much for the sake of your own humanity as for the wellbeing of the prisoners.

I find Cain fascinating. She was always probably a bit of a martinet, but you don't get (by Adama's lack of "we are screwed, here she is" initial reaction) that she was always that way.

[words-in-flight.livejournal.com]

I am an utter sap, but this movie always makes me sniffle and feel so bad for Lady Jane.

But then there's the compenstaion of Patrick Stewart in white velevet, yes?

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Heeeee. I am more of a Cary Elwes girl, but yes.

[aliterati.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I've always wanted to see that. But never have.

I was a huge CE fangirl, though now I'm rather disappointed with the direction his career has taken. If you want to see a gorgeous young Cary Elwes, a gorgeous young Rupert Everett, and an adorable young Colin Firth in a movie together, see Another Country. Yes, the first two are kind of a couple in it. But I really think it would still be worth your time for the cuteness value.

(Ignore the strange pronouncements on Communism.)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I've seen it, it's pretty good (but I thought RE and CE were a couple and CF was just RE's best friend).

[missmarch.livejournal.com]

Cary Elwes was very pretty when younger, even though I'm not one for blondes generally, and he really hasn't aged well.

I like your thoughts on BSG. I admit that I had a visceral reaction to Cain, and I could not stand her. But some of her decisions weren't bad. Starbuck and Apollo are too close to Adama and come across as spoiled children sometimes, so I can't fault her for thinking they should be separated.

I agree about ROTK. It is hard to rewatch, and I think I've only seen it twice, despite the fact that it's a really good episode. It just makes me sad. Plus, illegal homeless boxing is one of Logan's low points. I hate to see him do such stupid shit.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

he really hasn't aged well

Such a pity! He was yummy when younger.

agree about ROTK. It is hard to rewatch, and I think I've only seen it twice, despite the fact that it's a really good episode. It just makes me sad. Plus, illegal homeless boxing is one of Logan's low points. I hate to see him do such stupid shit.

I really think he's acting out for attention. The boy is a mess. Btw, do we know whose "brilliant" idea it was? He was obviously in the thick of it, but I have no idea if he was the ringleader.

I think by far the thing that freaked me out the most about the ep wasn't even the beating, or Logan sneaking into the house without his shoes, but his perfectly coiffed mother just sitting there with he glass, not lifting a finger to help. Because? Sick.

[brookiedawookie.livejournal.com]

"I was thinking about how much I love the character of Admiral Cain on Battlestar. Not because she is someone I'd want to be in the 100 mile radius of, but because I think it's wonderful that RM & crew created someone who is not a Twirly McMustache villain, but someone all of whose actions, looked at in a certain light are justifiable."

yeah- but shes still a bitch :).

[cpt-raina.livejournal.com]

And there should be stuff in the logs about all the great stuff Apollo, Starbuck etc did.
I think that's why she just transferred them instead of throwing them in the brig or executing them.