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dangermousieDisclaimer: I am basing these only on the 2006 and 2008 adaptations of ROCH and LOCH respectively. I have not read the books so book purists, don't hunt me down.
I am on ep 8 of Legend of Condor Heroes and find myself faintly puzzled (in a good way :P) - for wuxia there has been so very little angst. So far it's just been picaresque adventures of sweet dim boy and unscrupulous clever girl and their assorted associates. By episode 8 of Return of Condor Heroes, Yang Guo and Xiao Long Nu had already had more misery than an entire run of a kdrama. I am not complaining because YG and XLN had enough angst and hurt/comfort for 20 people, but it does seem strange :P Still, I don't trust it too much - I've been told Ariel Lin and Hu Ge's previous collaboration Little Fairy, had 10 solid eps of fluff and then plunged into Unparalleled! Angst! Of! Doom! with suicide attempts, slavery, amnesia and death by flying carpet. :P
I wonder if the lightness, so far, comes from the fact that Guo Jing himself is such an uncomplicated, sweet person - he is not tormented and conflicted - even the vengeance he has to achieve for the death of his father - he goes after it because it's his duty but there is no corrosive loathing hatred in him. Yang Guo of ROCH is a much smarter, darker, complex person, IMO.
Ironically in light of her long-standing distrust of him due to his parentage, which made his life a misery for quite a while, Yang Guo reminds me of nobody so much as a male version of Huang Rong. Both come from deeply dubious moral backgrounds (Huang Rong's father is a borderline villain and so is Yang Guo's), both have the same off-kilter, reckless, practical joke sense of humor, both are clever, both will put care for those they love above abstract good, both had potential for becoming villains themselves (and came close). Both got saved from that possible fate by those they chose to love - Huang Rong became a better person because she fell in love with Guo Jing who is pure good, and Yang Guo dedicated his life to Xiao Long Nu who is not like Guo Jing, but she has principles on a basic level and his love for her (which is a good thing) always trumped anything else that could have been questionable.
I think I like them both so because they both became ultimately good with no guideposts in childhood - Huang Rong being brought up by her father, and Yang Guo having a childhood from hell or just a plain odd one, first with Guo Jing and Huang Rong (who are the world's worst parents in general, but about that more below), then with evil monks who could inspire one to become an atheist, and then in a cave.
Yang Guo is a lot closer to what I'd imagine Huang Rong's kid to be then her own daughter, Guo Fu. I found it ironic that Huang Rong never trusted Yang Guo, never really opened her heart to him, didn't teach him martial arts either, because she was worried he'd take after his father and go all Anakin, all the while not noticing that she was the one growing a real monster in her daughter. I have no words for my loathing of Guo Fu - I don't think I have ever hated a non-OTP interloper as much. She crippled Yang Guo and caused a close to two-decades of separation for YG and XLN (the man almost killed himself, and not for lack of trying) and she got rewarded with a nice husband and a happy life! Ugh. I found her being so useless, selfish, immature, and impulse-control-phobic pretty realistic though. I doubt Guo Jing and Huang Rong had a lot of hands-on time bringing her up - saving the world repeatedly doesn't leave much time for childrearing. And she got brought up as the only child of the two greatest heroes of her age, adored by proxy, never with a want she couldn't have fulfiilled before she even thought about it, and none of it based on her own merit. And much as I love Guo Jing and Huang Rong, their personalities couldn't have made it any better - Guo Jing is so kind and straightforward that unless she was blatantly ripping wings off flies in his presence, he'd not notice her badness. And Huang Rong would notice but it all goes towards her relationships with those few she loves - she would spoil and do anything. So Guo Fu grows up into this terrible human being (who can't even back herself up by having enough talent to be a villain). Well, at least they learned from their mistakes and brought up the twins properly.
Not really related to the above but I always found the ending of ROCH a little sad, however understandable. At the end of LOCH, Guo Jing and Huang Rong are out in the world, doing cool things. At the end of ROCH, Yang Guo and XLN are in that cave, to live there forever and ever and never bother with the outside world again - just be with each other. I don't particularly blame them, all they got since leaving the cave was misery, but I still find it a little sad.
In conclusion, have a Yang Guo/XLN mv. They are so my favorite wuxia couple.
I am on ep 8 of Legend of Condor Heroes and find myself faintly puzzled (in a good way :P) - for wuxia there has been so very little angst. So far it's just been picaresque adventures of sweet dim boy and unscrupulous clever girl and their assorted associates. By episode 8 of Return of Condor Heroes, Yang Guo and Xiao Long Nu had already had more misery than an entire run of a kdrama. I am not complaining because YG and XLN had enough angst and hurt/comfort for 20 people, but it does seem strange :P Still, I don't trust it too much - I've been told Ariel Lin and Hu Ge's previous collaboration Little Fairy, had 10 solid eps of fluff and then plunged into Unparalleled! Angst! Of! Doom! with suicide attempts, slavery, amnesia and death by flying carpet. :P
I wonder if the lightness, so far, comes from the fact that Guo Jing himself is such an uncomplicated, sweet person - he is not tormented and conflicted - even the vengeance he has to achieve for the death of his father - he goes after it because it's his duty but there is no corrosive loathing hatred in him. Yang Guo of ROCH is a much smarter, darker, complex person, IMO.
Ironically in light of her long-standing distrust of him due to his parentage, which made his life a misery for quite a while, Yang Guo reminds me of nobody so much as a male version of Huang Rong. Both come from deeply dubious moral backgrounds (Huang Rong's father is a borderline villain and so is Yang Guo's), both have the same off-kilter, reckless, practical joke sense of humor, both are clever, both will put care for those they love above abstract good, both had potential for becoming villains themselves (and came close). Both got saved from that possible fate by those they chose to love - Huang Rong became a better person because she fell in love with Guo Jing who is pure good, and Yang Guo dedicated his life to Xiao Long Nu who is not like Guo Jing, but she has principles on a basic level and his love for her (which is a good thing) always trumped anything else that could have been questionable.
I think I like them both so because they both became ultimately good with no guideposts in childhood - Huang Rong being brought up by her father, and Yang Guo having a childhood from hell or just a plain odd one, first with Guo Jing and Huang Rong (who are the world's worst parents in general, but about that more below), then with evil monks who could inspire one to become an atheist, and then in a cave.
Yang Guo is a lot closer to what I'd imagine Huang Rong's kid to be then her own daughter, Guo Fu. I found it ironic that Huang Rong never trusted Yang Guo, never really opened her heart to him, didn't teach him martial arts either, because she was worried he'd take after his father and go all Anakin, all the while not noticing that she was the one growing a real monster in her daughter. I have no words for my loathing of Guo Fu - I don't think I have ever hated a non-OTP interloper as much. She crippled Yang Guo and caused a close to two-decades of separation for YG and XLN (the man almost killed himself, and not for lack of trying) and she got rewarded with a nice husband and a happy life! Ugh. I found her being so useless, selfish, immature, and impulse-control-phobic pretty realistic though. I doubt Guo Jing and Huang Rong had a lot of hands-on time bringing her up - saving the world repeatedly doesn't leave much time for childrearing. And she got brought up as the only child of the two greatest heroes of her age, adored by proxy, never with a want she couldn't have fulfiilled before she even thought about it, and none of it based on her own merit. And much as I love Guo Jing and Huang Rong, their personalities couldn't have made it any better - Guo Jing is so kind and straightforward that unless she was blatantly ripping wings off flies in his presence, he'd not notice her badness. And Huang Rong would notice but it all goes towards her relationships with those few she loves - she would spoil and do anything. So Guo Fu grows up into this terrible human being (who can't even back herself up by having enough talent to be a villain). Well, at least they learned from their mistakes and brought up the twins properly.
Not really related to the above but I always found the ending of ROCH a little sad, however understandable. At the end of LOCH, Guo Jing and Huang Rong are out in the world, doing cool things. At the end of ROCH, Yang Guo and XLN are in that cave, to live there forever and ever and never bother with the outside world again - just be with each other. I don't particularly blame them, all they got since leaving the cave was misery, but I still find it a little sad.
In conclusion, have a Yang Guo/XLN mv. They are so my favorite wuxia couple.
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no subject
Date: 2010-05-28 02:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-28 03:00 pm (UTC)It was a 'rape by trick' thing where she thought it was her boyfriend but was that awful monk and when she found out quite some time later I love that she didn't waste time thinking she was somehow diminished because of it - no she just rode out and hunted the guy down and killed him, the way one would avenge any insult to one's honor (I also loved that during their wedding "I am dying" was an issue but "I am not a virgin" was not in the least). I just found it really really wonderful the way it was handled.
But yes, I was just happy they got a happy ending, however odd, because I was seriously worried there.
Great analysis and questions!
Date: 2010-05-28 04:04 pm (UTC)All your questions are perfectly valid and your analysis quite spot on for someone who has not read the novels (and no purist would hunt you down! Silly, reading the novels is not necessary to enjoy the dramas at all, I read the novels years later after I watched the original LoCH1982 and RoCh1983 like 20 times already).
The reason why I said you really do need to watch in order is purely for the “progression” factor. RoCH starts off smack dab in the middle of story, so to speak. Hence, angst is built in and issues are already unresolved. Yang Guo has no time to play, because his life sucks already without him having done anything (a lot of why he’s pretty pissed off at the world, for good reason).
LoCh is the beginning of the story, and the two OTPs in LoCH are happy (more or less) carefree kids (compared to YG). Yeah, they have to avenge their father’s death/destruction, but they still have time to fall in love, run around Wulin learning martial arts skills, and having cool adventures. The angst you are looking for? It’s right around the corner (first all Yang Kang angst, then Yang Kang +MNC angst, then Guo Jing + Huang Rong angst, and finally, Guo Jing + Yang Kang angst).
So, LoCH does start off much breezier (if you discount YK and GJ’s family getting massacred or separated) than RoCH. But the breeziness is because the two sets of OTPs are so loveable and or shippable. Really, the stuff they deal with, it’s hard, but made easier because they each find their significant other so early in the story.
As for the Huang Rong – Yang Guo dynamic, I’m LOL-ing because devotees of the story can tell you that everyone thinks the exact same thing – YG is HR’s son in spirit. They are so alike it scares her, hence she guards as against him because she knows that she was one step away from being evil if not for meeting her Jing-gege. What HR doesn’t account for is that YG’s MOTHER is the kind, compassionate, loving MNC. And YG got her heart, and got his father’s brain and good looks and cunning.
But in all honesty, a lot of folks (myself included) think that Louis Cha (the author of the novels), sold out Huang Rong’s character in RoCH for the sake of the story. He needed YG to grow up alone and unloved to create a hero, so he made her the bad guy to get YG to the Sect. The HR that married GJ and lived with him would have been much more compassionate by the time they ran into YG. Huang Rong of LoCH is probably THE most beloved character ever written by Louis Cha (sorry, folks by and large hate Xiaolongnu, but I don’t want to go into that) based on polls and critics, but her character got shafted in RoCH to create conflict. In the end, it worked, but it’ll be hard for you to reconcile how adorable, smart, cute, Ariel’s HR is when you know she’s gonna change in about 10 years or so. In my mind, HR stays the way she was in LoCH forever, she’s that amazingly kickass awesome!
I love both sets of OTPs in LoCH, but another what-if people have is that HR-YK are way more compatible as are GJ-MNC, and yet it was opposites attract, which heightens the tension and makes the relationships so much more meaty. Don’t worry about your questions, keep up the great analysis, I feel like I’m watching it for the first time through your eyes, and I love it.
Btw, Ouyang Ke’s character is also changed in LoCH2008 (a LOT), just so you know, the novel OYK is 1oo% a sleazeball slimebucket with ZERO redeeming qualities. This OYK is very multi-dimensional and nuanced.
Re: Great analysis and questions!
Date: 2010-05-28 04:31 pm (UTC)Btw, don't tell anyone, but I kind of find Ouyang Ke in this version pretty fanciable - looks and personality-wise. It's my secret shame. :)
Re: XLN. I could actually see why people wouldn't like her but I do. In part because Crystal Liu who played her is so gorgeous it takes my breath away and I am ocassionally very shallow, but in part because I do like her as a character. I don't think she'd be a life of the party, but I love that her attitude to finding out she was raped is to cut off the guy's head and move on, her attitude to finding out her OTP plans to ride into a besieged fortress and kill the people who brought him up is "OK, when do we start?". She is so very elemental. And of course I love that she loves Yang Guo so unswervingly because the guy deserves unconditional love from someone.
Re: Huang Rong and her attitude to child Yang Guo. I am only on ep 8 of 50 ep LOCH so she may grow and change a lot but I can see HR of ep 8 doing what she does with the child. Honestly, much as I adore YG (he is one of my all-time favorite characters), and feel bad for his childhood, I cannot blame Huang Rong for what she did - it would take an amazing heart to be able to live with a living Sword of Damocles poised over your head, especially in a society that seems so based on codes of familial honor and vengeance. She was bound to know that YG refused his mother's deathbed request to forsake vengeance. And HR would do anything to protect her family so...In the end she does feel repentant which is all I can expect unless the person is as purehearted as Guo Jing.
Re: Yang Kang. I think this version's YK may be my favorite character. It's the surprise factor - with GJ you always know what he will do but with YK you are never fully certain - will he do the right thing, will he slide right off the edge? Though while I was joking about the foot fetish earlier I am seriously wandering by now - it's twice he's been washing MNC's feet as a destressor!
no subject
Date: 2010-05-28 04:48 pm (UTC)for me, the most tragic, angst ridden otp is that of yang kang and mu nianci with his parents back-story thrown in for good measure. seriously, in the 2003 version, the heartbreak of his parents just about killed me. as for yang kang, and mu nianci, if there ever was a whole thing of would haves, could haves, should haves, they would be the definition for it. and so, when i watch LCOH, strangely, i am always more invested in the secondary OTP, as the main OTP is just a tad to fluffy for me...
on another note, have marathoned through 8 eps of blue lan's p.s. man, and i'm obsessed!
btw, thanks for the congrats on the wedding!:)
no subject
Date: 2010-05-28 08:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-28 05:17 pm (UTC)You’re absolutely right, HR of the early phases of LoCH would definitely eat up YG for breakfast, even young buy YG, without blinking an eye. What makes RoCH harder to accept is that HR grows, matures, and understands her place in the world by the end of LoCH, so beginning of RoCH should not be the young HR dealing with YG’s issues.
I think it’s a toss-up, though, because what pisses the world of readers off the MOST about RoCH’s HR is the fact that Louis Cha wrote Guo Fu as her daughter (has there ever been a more despised child of heroes, I don’t know where to find it!). And then threw then the world’s most adorable, lovely child Guo Xiang as a consolation prize (hey, you guys screwed up, here’s a second try).
Anyways, LoCh is and RoCh is as it is, and really, all the quibbles here and there doesn’t negate that we love this amazing story, all the coolness and angst and pathos is unmatched in modern wuxia writing.
I have to tell you, there is NO SECRET SHAME to liking LoCH2008’s revised version of Ouyang Ke. If you go search Youtube, Tudou, Youku, you will discover that Lee Jia’s portrayal of OYK was beloved (the number of videos about him is astonishing), making a one-note douchebag secondary villain and turning him into this totally “I can’t believe I like him, but I DO!” type of character.
When I watched LoCH2008, Yang Kang is also my favorite, because of Yuan Hong’s performance (YK is less cunning and ruthless and more conflicted and morally tormented). Btw, if you think washing feet is sexy, you aint seen nothing yet with our YK-MNC couple. I think ep 43 may have you OMG-ing from here six-ways to Sunday (it sure did for me).
Xiaolongnu is, her character is defined by her love for Yang Guo. RoCH is the most love-story oriented of any of Louis Cha’s novels, making it the most easily loveable by the masses, and also the easiest to critique by the wuxia lovers (for veering too far into the lovey-dovey). I enjoy RoCH because it was an important story to tell, and their love was indeed pure. Yang Guo is one of, if not THE, most beloved male characters ever written by Louis Cha. Guo Jing doesn’t really rank because he is too wonderfully sweet and kind. YG is a very complex character, I love him but wouldn’t want to marry him.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-28 08:30 pm (UTC)I am glad I am not alone in liking Ouyang Ke - he is smart and smirky and secure, I find him appealing against my better self :)
I adore Yang Guo but I agree - I would not want to marry him. He is pretty much a mess but also his love for his OTP is so total, it would be a little frightening in everyday life (though it makes sense - she's been his only emotional connection/kindness for a long time). Something a little less intense is probably more suitable for average life. I am only familiar with 3 Louis Cha novels (ROCH, LOCH through adaptations and reading translation of The Book and the Sword), and I'd pick Guo Jing for a spouse :) (Certainly not the hero of TB&TS - that man simply could not make up his mind!)
For some reason, it feels to me as if in 2008 LOCH version they modified YK to make him a little more like potential Yang Guo father if it makes sense.
revision of YK's character
Date: 2010-05-29 01:27 am (UTC)The pathos of RoCH is in fact cemented by YG having a totally unredeemable father, a beyond crappy childhood, a difficult youth, a obstacle-clad romantic journey, and a lonely hero-building phase for 16 years - and still he is a decent, heroic, awe-inspiring guy who is a hero inspite of any desire for fame or glory.
You need YG to atone for his father's sins (I know, its totally not fair, why does YG constantly have to prove himself NOT his father's son, but its Confucian ethics, go figure), to make YG's hero journey THAT much more meaningful. Everywhere he went, everyone tells him "your father is a 100% bad guy" and yet he still perserveres.
I think the motivation for YK's change in LoCH2008 is because Yuan Hong is playing him (he has the chops to pull off the conflicted emotional tug-of-war) and to add more depth to his character - not to set up for RoCH.
Actually, YK's death in LoCH2008 is different than in the novel and previous adaptations (i.e. in the novel he tried to kill Huang Rong and was instead poisoned by the poison left on her soft armour, and in this version its not like that - I won't spoil for you), which kinda negates the reason why YG wants to kill HR in RoCH. But I think in the big picture it doesn't matter.
Hahaha, everyone wants to date YG and marry GJ, that's the consensus. :-)
Re: revision of YK's character
Date: 2010-05-29 03:14 am (UTC)I know, its totally not fair, why does YG constantly have to prove himself NOT his father's son, but its Confucian ethics, go figure
I really like what ROCH has to say about heredity - it's what you make of yourself and your environment that matters most. YG is a son of a villain and an amazing person. Guo Fu is a daughter of two incredibly awesome people and an utter waste of space.
a totally unredeemable father, a beyond crappy childhood, a difficult youth, a obstacle-clad romantic journey, and a lonely hero-building phase for 16 years - and still he is a decent, heroic, awe-inspiring guy who is a hero inspite of any desire for fame or glory.
You've just summed up why I love him to bits - even more so because unlike e.g. Guo Jing he realizes the possibility of being selfish or going full-out evil even but ultimately does not.
everyone wants to date YG and marry GJ, that's the consensus
OTOH the conversations with GJ might get a little dull after a while but not so with YG - not because he's smart (though he is) but because who can weary of being told how much he loves you and how awesome you are? LOLOLOL
Re: revision of YK's character
Date: 2010-05-29 03:51 am (UTC)Guo Jing really is dumb as a brick, and his seven teachers are completely useless (my mom used to laugh at them for being so weak!). But GJ has a heart as wide and as long as China, and that's something you can learn. And which HR values above all else, how kind and good he is.
Re: revision of YK's character
Date: 2010-05-29 03:56 am (UTC)Re: tomb. I totally understand why they'd want to, especially in light of societal disapproval of their relationship and because neither of them seems to be a partying type person (not to mention if they hide away, Guo Fu won't come calling :P) but I still find it a little sad - because I can't help but think how I'd hate it myself. I really love how open and unashamed they are about being themselves and their relationship, though - they won't do something just because they are told it's the right thing to do (i.e. break up because they are teacher and student) but will only do things if they are genuinely good not societally good.
Guo Jing is so so dense but his kind heart makes up for it - I love him to bits. He is just such an amazing person. His teachers should just retire far far away and never teach again.
Re: revision of YK's character
Date: 2010-05-29 04:14 am (UTC)Re: revision of YK's character
Date: 2010-05-29 04:22 am (UTC)Ooooh, what are the most wuxia of sageuks? Though I have yet to make it to anything past 30+ ep counts for period kdramas (The Kingdom of the Winds and Ja Myung Go are about the maximum). Even Jumong which I really loved, I am still stuck somewhere in the middle with.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 04:47 am (UTC)Ai
no subject
Date: 2010-05-29 12:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-06-01 12:42 pm (UTC)I see where you are coming from re: Yang Guo Huang Rong comparison though and some parts of it are spot on.
Guo Jing is my all time favorite wuxia love. He is kind hearted and even though he too has had a bad childhood, there was also much love in it too (his mother loved him and he had cool friends - and even though his masters were kind of harsh they didn't hate him and made him suffer like the monks did to poor Yang Guo)
I love that Guo Jing is a person you can trust with your life. Which brings me to my favorite female wuxia character
XLN - she is a good person, despite the fact that she is brought up in a totally bizarre, unemotional way, she turned out kind, loving, caring and forgiving. She is independent, doesn't crumble when things get really bad and does not hesitate to sacrifice anything for her loved one but will not harm others unless she doesn't have any other choice. I would trust her with my life too.
Yang Guo is someone I'd be good friends with but I couldn't be romantically involved him, so much baggage :(.
Huang Rong, I never really liked since I would not be able to trust in that sort of person. I wouldn't even be friends with her. She looked after Guo Jing very well though, I'll give her that.
Gao Fu is so stupid that I don't even love to hate her. Seriously if Guo Jing knew what she did to Yang Guo, he wouldn't hesitate to cut her arm off. And her sister is such a sweetheart. Same parents, same upbringing but a totally different character.
no subject
Date: 2010-06-01 12:54 pm (UTC)I really like XLN. She is defintely weird by any definition - she can and does feel love and will be unhesitating in her loved one's defense/care/etc but normal human interactions in general are beyond her due to her upbringing. While I think YG would have fit into normal world OK, in the long run (and did, even though he ended up preferring the cave), I don't think she ever really would have fit in - the cave is the best, most comfortable place for her (I am glad at least they had a pretty one at the end and not the gloomy one they grew up in - that place gave me the creeps). And I love that the 'weirdness' is not looked down upon by the story - she is allowed to be strong and a bit odd and loving and awesome.
Yang Guo is someone I'd be good friends with but I couldn't be romantically involved him, so much baggage :(.
I think the temptation of imagining being with YG (other than who does not want to be loved like that) is that most classic of all fiction tropes - having a damaged, unloved hottie and healing him with your love. :) But in RL, I agree, that is a lot of work, at least if you are a cheery everyday person and not made of awesomesauce like XLN.
Re: Huang Rong. I think she is one of those people to whom the person she loves (whether as wife with GJ or mother with GF) trumps everything, even justice and goodness. I can't really blame her and I do love her, but I think one would have yto be careful around her - if you became a potential threat to her loved ones, even in her head, nothing would stop her.
Re: difference btw GF and her sister - I really do thing GJ and HR learned from their mistakes.
if Guo Jing knew what she did to Yang Guo, he wouldn't hesitate to cut her arm off
He didn't hesitate - HR hid her :)
no subject
Date: 2010-06-02 05:58 am (UTC)I think that GF was just a bad apple. Some people turn out bad no matter how much they are loved and treated right. Look at Yang Kang, he is loved by his mother (and father) into adulthood had every advantage etc. but he is not a good person.