Panicked Veronica Mars thought

[dangermousie]

Well, you know how everyone seems to be on a Veronica/Logan bandwagon? All well and good, but I just realized that in Buffy parallels, Duncan=Angel and Logan=Spike. And I was such a hardcore B/A shipper. Oh no....Now I have a hideous image of myself being one of (it seems like) 10 people who ship V/D (OK, bad initials, make me think of "venerial desease" :P) and everyone else being all uncomprehending and going "whaaaaa?"

Or not. Maybe I'll be all over V/L because it will have the bestest angst or something. But then...being a B/A and S/B shipper at the same time (or sort of) ought to make one's head explode...

Plus, I don't think we get episodes and episodes of V/D exclusivity hearts'n'flowers which would make it OK.

Well, I'll stick to being a canon nazi, and that way I'll just ship whichever way the show goes.

I need sleep. But this musing over a show I've not yet seen is distracting me from seeking Serenity spoilers, so all well and good.

Comments

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Hah, I knew I shouldn't have mentioned it ;)

But eh, just go with the flow. Season 1 is out on DVD btw .

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

You are evil :)

I don't think it's out in the US until October....

[rawles.livejournal.com]

All well and good, but I just realized that in Buffy parallels, Duncan=Angel and Logan=Spike.

You have no idea how sad you saying that makes me.

Or how much wank such things being said has already caused in the VM fandom.

Woe.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I know people hate it. But the comparison (also with sherrif guy being Riley) kinda lends itself.

[rawles.livejournal.com]

Well, if you listen to fandom just about every show in the universe lends itself to comparison to Buffy and every antagonistic ship to Buffy/Spike. Which, I don't agree with. At all.

But c'est la vie.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

To me it's less Logan = Spike and Duncan = Angel (after all, last time I checked neither of them is a murdering vampire; Plus Logan angst and background is very different from Spike angst and background;).

It's just the basic character set up. The "we can't be together" first love, the supposedly safe boring guy (with a touch of law enforcement), the antagonist relationship. It's all pretty iconic. I'm sure every soap opera has it to some extent. It's just that Angel/Buffy/Riley/Spike (plus Wallace can always be Xander) are probably more well known in the lj world.

It's true that Buffy lends itself to comparison. But that's because it was (1) quite popular (2) fairly recent (3) rather well written and most importantly (4) offered a big variety of relationships Buffy and her harem, Xander/Willow, Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Xander/Cordy, Spike/Dru... Buffy was full of example relationships.

Most other shows have much fewer working relationships. Kinda makes it natural for Buffy parallels showing up all over the place. Of course it's not Buffy that is being copied. It's just that both use the same iconic relationship groundwork. Of course the execution of it is always different. Just like you can tell a million variations or basic groundwork "Boy meets girl" or "Character saves the world/universe".

[rawles.livejournal.com]

See, yes. That's what's at the root of my problem. The basic relationship and character archetypes are universal and not at all unique to BtVS, which is why it's extremely annoying when people use BtVS as a parallel to EVERYTHING EVER and then operate under the assumption that because these same universal story and character archetypes are in marginal useage that it will all be exactly the same as Buffy was. Then they predicate all of their meta and wank and shipping and everything else on this fallacious reasoning, which leads to me pulling my hair out, because then no one's actually talking about VM. Everyone's just talking about Buffy again.

I adored Buffy. Immensely. It's probably my favorite show ever, if not it's in the top three. But I'd appreciate it if people wouldn't eternally get their Buffy, and Buffy issues, into my other fandoms.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Like I said, Buffy is the most recent. So I think people will be comparing it at least for a while. And after the next generation of consumers comes along who never watched Buffy in their time, then other comparisons will come along.

I see nothing horrid with it (then again, I was never involved with either the Buffy fandom or the Veronica Mars fandom).

Never had any issues with Clark/Lex (who bore me) being compared to Mulder/Krycek (who I adored). Another parallel that I always thought lent itself too was that Kyle/Liz/Max = Whitney/Lana/Clark. Another popular comparison tool was for a long time Dawson/Joey/Pacey.

I think the idea of comparisons is (at least for me) to not proove that character A is exactly like character B, but to give people a basic idea of the character set up. Tends to make explaining easier. You find me another way to explain the basic character concept in 1 sentence so everybody knows what is going on and I'll gladly switch. Until then, Buffy and her harem is a pratical quickie analogy.

Not that I don't get being annoyed with certain comparisons being drawn all over again. I sure wish I could stop people from comparing every ship these days to Pride and Prejudice simply because it's done so often. But if it works for people than it works.

I think it will always happen that people just don't like the parallels that are drawn because they think they are unflattering to their pairing. Because it's probably nice to be compared to lets say Joey/Pacey (btw Dawson/Joey/Pacey? Also similar ground concept.) than to Buffy/Spike. Just because something is the most obvious parallel, doesn't mean it has to resonate with you personally.

But parallels are important. Because whether we like it or not, I think it is true for a lot of people that they are often drawn to similar types of ships. Doesn't mean that the stories go the same. If you like star crossed lovers, you will like star crossed lovers probably again (unless terribly executed). If you like fun, dangerous sexy relationship, chances are that you will like a pairing that has a similar ground set up, even if it ends up going into a completly different direction.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Well, since I haven't seen the show, if you (or your icon) say it's not true, I'd be glad to accept it.

I did read ep summaries and such and it didn't seem so to me (other than Duncan=first bf and Logan having fights with Veronica), but I did see these thrown around on a board and that made me paranoid :)

[rawles.livejournal.com]

It should be noted that since I co-founded an sekrit elitist society in the VM fandom based largely upon the idea of people never, ever being allowed to make that comparison again, I'm probably biased.

Mostly, I feel like the comparison is the result of Buffy fandom sort of transplanting itself into VM fandom, and not being able to let go of BtVS.

I personally prefer to actually experience a new story when it is presented to me, rather than try too hard to equate to an old story and thus bring all of my biases and prejudices from my experience with the old story along with me.

And then I just seriously feel as though the comparisons, especially fandom's endless Spike comparisons, are almost entirely based upon vague archetypes that only barely fit on a surface level and never take into account at all anything beyond that.

Basically, if someone would make a logical argument for Logan = Spike or whatever, I wouldn't mind so much. But they never do. They just go, "Well, Logan is a bad boy! And he has an antagonistic relationship with Veronica! And Veronica is a blonde high school girl! OMG THEY ARE BUFFY AND SPIKE!"

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Well, Logan is a bad boy! And he has an antagonistic relationship with Veronica! And Veronica is a blonde high school girl!

That's like 729 other ships out there, though...

*phew* Now I feel relieved. Though if someone does discover that Logan is 100+ years old and really likes to suck blood out of people, I'll reconsider.

[rawles.livejournal.com]

That's like 729 other ships out there, though...

Exactly.

Though, dearladydisdain and I have this sekrit conceit that Logan/Veronica actually equals Lee/Kara.

But we're mostly joking.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

The odd thing is, if you think about it hard enough, you can equate all your ships to one another in some way. Well, most of them anyway. I can't really equate Simon/Kaylee with Lee/Kara unless I strain really hard.

Logan/Veronica actually equals Lee/Kara.

*waits for Logan's brother to show out of the woodwork* :D

So, who's Blanders on VM then?

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I feel like the comparison is the result of Buffy fandom sort of transplanting itself into VM fandom, and not being able to let go of BtVS.

Well, it's not that for me because I was never a big Buffy fan in the first place.

In fact the only thing that translated to me from one to the other is that I didn't really want Buffy with any guy and I don't particularly want Veronica (permanently) with any guy either. I have a thing for lonesome heros, whether they are male or female.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I have a thing for lonesome heros, whether they are male or female.

Me, I am all for Noah's Ark: everyone paired off :)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

everyone paired off :)

I hatehatehate that. It's right up there with "Suddenly everyone is gay" fanfiction.

All characters getting pairings every once in a while? All at the same time? Getting along with each other? Eeeeeeeeeek. Fastest way to drive me right out of the next window.

[rawles.livejournal.com]

I wasn't accusing you in particular of that. But I have seen people go so far as to theorize that Rob Thomas is sekritly consulting with Marti Noxon to destroy Logan in the eyes of the viewer (Like Spike, you understand), because he used the song Bad Boyfriend for Logan and Marti Noxon once referred to Spike as a bad boyfriend.

So, yes.

People do it. Most definitely.

Though I enjoy Logan/Veronica, I can ship Veronica with everybody (except Wallace) and nobody. So, I get where you're coming from on that count.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

he used the song Bad Boyfriend for Logan and Marti Noxon once referred to Spike as a bad boyfriend

ROFL! I love fandom....

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I'm weird that way. I can see Wallace but Veronica/Weevil kinda squicks me out (even though a lot of people I like are fond of it and writing it).

=> I hate behind the scenes conspiracy stuff. It's kinda fun to read it after the fact, after the show is gone and dad, but while fandom is still going on it always just annoys the shyte out of me.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

It should be noted that since I co-founded an sekrit elitist society in the VM fandom based largely upon the idea of people never, ever being allowed to make that comparison again, I'm probably biased.


Are you the one who was fandom wanked by any chance?

[rawles.livejournal.com]

I have never been Fandom Wanked to the best of my knowledge.

I've never even had anything remotely to do with anything that made it to Fandom Wank, in fact.

Ok, maybe peripherally, once. Some friends of mine from Mars Investigations were involved in a tiny wank that actually had nothing to do with Veronica Mars and was about Allison Mack, strangely enough.

[ex-beautyof.livejournal.com]

If I see a strong chemistry I love it... No matter what type of ship it is (D/V or V/L)... At the moment I ship LoVe.

on btvs I ship B/A but like spuffy too. So yeah I think for me its just a matter of chemistry more than anything else, not what type it is.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

If I see a strong chemistry I love it...

I really think that's what matters. If there's chemistry, it trumps all...

[thelana.livejournal.com]

*raises hand*

For me it's actually always a big conflict when it's "better chemistry" vs. "better story". I think I'm a book person at heart which is why good (as opposed to out of this world goodamazingsupadupa) chemistry usually does not conquer bad or stupid storytelling. Plus I tend to give ships a lot of leerway if I love the concept on paper (I usually call it character chemistry as opposed to actor chemistry) even if the execution is lacking on screen. Or course that rarely does me any good and ends in lack of satisfaction.

BTW, sorry for always spamming your journal with insane discussion. I'm feeling like I'm lately writing more in your journal than in my own :D

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

No apologies...I love reading all the discussion: you always have such good points!