Babies in bars

[dangermousie]

Apparently there is a big debate going on in Brooklyn about whether it's OK to bring babies to bars.

To which my short reply is: ARE YOU INSANE????

I am a mother of a one-year-old. I can understand stir-crazy. I can understand having a tiny house and not being able to entertain or not being able to find a baby-sitter.

BUT IT'S A BAR.

You know, place with too many TVs, loud music, drunk/loud/making-out/sometimes-aggressive people, and a lot of booze. And that is not even pointing out that a small child will either be scared, cranky, or bored in a place like that and drive the other patrons nuts.

WHO LUGS THEIR BABY/KID INTO A BAR?

If you feel stir-crazy go for a walk with your kid or a museum - something which the kid will enjoy (or at least not mind) and is appropriate. Or even go out to a restaurant - even a fancy one - as long as you make certain adjustments and are considerate to other diners and the staff (we rarely can go out for dinner now due to her bedtime, but lunch is much more doable, we bring something for her to occupy herself, take her out asap if she gets cranky, clean up after her, and leave an extra-nice tip).

But not a bar! If you can't afford/don't know/don't trust a babysitter, take shifts with your partner - do a girls' night out where he minds the baby in exchange for you returning a favor for him. ETC ETC.

And sometimes you just have to give things up. Mr. Mousie and I were huge movie/theater-goers but I can count on fingers of one hand movies/plays we've been to recently. You have to realize life changes when you have a kid - if you don't like the idea that's fine, then don't have one.

Sorry, rant over. Because seriously - a bar? It's awful for your kid AND for other people around you.

Comments

[ficchica.livejournal.com]

My sister used to work in bars, the last place she worked full time a person brought their baby in pram into the bar at 8:50pm. The chain had a rule no kids after 9pm. They refused to serve her, she was not happy, an argument ensued, eventually she left under threat of the police being called.

I had lunch in another bar the other day and I saw one pregnant woman, and two women come in with babies. Lets not even get onto the subject of pregnant women drinking in bars and then getting offended when the bar staff refuse to serve them alcohol. Yeah I think babies in bars are pretty common over here in the UK. Nation of drunkards if you ask teetotal me.

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

I can't speak as a parent, because I'm not one, but I have to say I have mixed feelings about bringing babies to bars. Night time bars? Crowded late night bars? Definitely not. But there's a pretty healthy pub-type-culture in and around NYC where I live, and a whole lot of places that are considered bars are much closer to restaurant/bars than some sort of night club. And daytime or pre-happy hour at a lot of these places isn't any more raucous or dark than your average restaurant (and are a lot less boistrous than your average Applebees). Tons of them have lovely out door seating, and on a nice Sunday afternoon or early weekday evening, it seems to me like a perfectly decent place to bring a baby, socialize with friends and enjoy a beer before heading home.

I have serious issues with ambulatory children in bars (then again, I often have issues w/ them in restaurants, since so many people let their feral spawn run around the Olive Garden I worked at, and more than once I was inches from tripping on one and dropping a tray on it), but since we've had the smoking ban here in my area, I've seen a decent number of babies in bars at earlier hours, and they always seemed to be having a lovely time.

Crowded, loud, meet-market bars? Not a good idea, and I don't think it makes sense to bring a child out *anywhere* after 10pm. And getting drunk with a child in your care is obviously a bad idea no matter where you are. IDK if all the bars in your area are dark/smoky/loud, but near me, there are quite a few that seem like they'd be perfectly fine places to hang out with friends and a kidlet for a couple hours, as long as the place is chosen well, and you're not dragging them in there at 1 A.M. when the music's blasting.

One of the plusses of going to a bar-that-serves-food is that a decent level of noise is expected. I wouldn't want to go anywhere my eardrums are threatened, but in a place with healthy (non-damaging) levels of background noise and a TV or two going, if your baby starts making noise, it's not going to be nearly as disturbing to the other patrons as it would tend to be in a more sedate restaurant.

YMMV, of course, and again, I fully admit that I'm speaking as a non-parent, but there are a lot of different kinds of bars out there, and a lot of them have radically different environments depending on the time of day you go. And particularly here in NYC or other walking cities where you don't have to drive home, taking a stroll to meet some friends and have a drink or two doesn't seem like that much less of a legit socialization opportunity than going to a restaurant that serves drinks for the same purpose, and in your average bar, your baby's noise is far less likely to disturb other diners.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I don't think the debate about restaurants that happen to turn into bars/party places at night - when I read the article I got a distinct impression that they meant bars in the traditional sense of the word. The former would be OK and the latter not so much - I have been to a wide variety of bars, from dives with questionable smears on the walls to an upscale everything-chocolate-flavored lounge but none of these bona fide bars were a fit place for a child, IMO (or a place where I'd want children inflicted on me).

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

*shrug* The line's not so clear at a lot of the bars I frequent, or used to. I'd classify many not as restaruants that turn into bars, but bars that happen to have a kitchen.

I think anyone trying to argue that it's okay to bring kids/babies into loud/dark/crowded/meet market bars at night is being dumb/selfish/disingenuous, but daytime at a pub that serves a little grub, and isn't full of creepy drunks at that point? Or the art gallery/bar up the street from me? And your kid isn't shrieking? Not sure I see the harm.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

daytime at a pub that serves a little grub, and isn't full of creepy drunks at that point

I dunno, I guess I've never been in a place like that.

It just seems weird - why not get a baby sitter?

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

And see, that's probably... 4 out of 10 bars in a two block radius of me. I can think of two that are more dark/hole in a wall "creepy old man bar", two or three that are more about a handful of business-people having a beer or two at lunch, and a couple more with enough of an outdoor seating/restaurant vibe (I'm thinking of one with a nice roof deck) that you might see them as restaurants, even though the bar area is just as nice during the day.

As for why not get a baby sitter, ... maybe it has to do with that walking distance aspect? To me, a baby sitter seems like more of a few-hours/evening investment. If my friends are heading down to the pub a few blocks from my house during the early evening, before things get into full swing, it seems like overkill to call in a babysitter when I could just swing by with the stroller and hang out for an hour - and head home if she gets fussy. Or if I'm out shopping and get a text that my friends are at a local place, to swing by on the way home.

Now, I'll admit, it drives me up the wall when someone's got a baby/toddler at a bar *or* restaurant and they've got that mom-deafness thing going on, where they can apparently screen out their baby's cries/child's whining and ignore it and forget that everyone else in the place might not be so mom-deaf. But that holds true in any public place.

Again, I suspect it might have something to do w/ the urban environment, because I can see how someone in a more car-oriented environment might feel like "why would I bundle the baby into the car and choose a bar as a destination?" Because when I think about walking around my neighborhood or walking a few blocks to the store, I walk right past a good dozen restaurants/bars/restaurant-bars-pub-type-places on my way to or from literally anywhere. And it just doesn't compute to me to automatically rule out a whole class of socialization establisments when plenty of them are pretty darn quiet/low key/restaurant-like during the day and early evening.

As someone who often chooses go and chill/write during the afternoon/early evening at a local bar ... I've come to be very aware that there's a certain line that gets crossed around 5-9pm (depending on the place or the evening). Before that point, It's a room with a few patrons scattered around, and a nice lady behind a bar who'll bring me beer or fries, and it's a good place to write undisturbed without having to shell out for a whole meal. But at some point, people start filling the place up, it gets louder, the tables and floor fills up. That's when I usually head out, if I'm there for a writing spot.

If you know your local place, and you know where that line is, and respect it for both the baby's and the other patron's sake, I don't see a difference between hanging there and hanging at an Applebees (with the same 'don't get drunk while caring for the baby rules applying to both spots') I do see a big problem with bringing in a baby/toddler after that ambience line gets crossed, and find it obnoxious/selfish when I see someone bringing a stroller into a bar at midnight when you have loud drunks around. I have seen that and react like 'WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU'.

But like I said, I don't have a baby, so I don't know how I'd feel in that situation, or what I'd be comfortable with. But I guess I'm just saying, there are *plenty* of "bars" in my area that very much the "daytime at a pub that serves a little grub, and isn't full of creepy drunks at that point" sort of place. And while I don't live in Brooklyn, my neighborhood is very much like a lot of the "hipster" areas of Brooklyn (where a wide variety of bars are even thicker on the ground.)

[mishane.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you've said, everything.

I was listening to this debate on Z100 this morning (ech, I know) and read a few of the articles on it and you bring up a good point, re: the car-oriented environments. I have close friends with kids that live in Brooklyn and Chelsea and every time I visit them, when I get off the subway there's always a bunch of tiny bars/pubs and quiet cafes that serve liquor that are open and are really nice to sit in, at least until the kind of crazy after work crowd comes in, which is usually 5-7 PM. So before those hours, I don't see a big problem in maybe seeing a parent walking around the neighborhood, doing errands and then stopping to have a glass of wine with a friend. If the baby is with her, why not?

It's the whole 'going out at night with the creeps and social life' scene where I'd say NONONO to having kids in the bar. Because at the point, you're probably going out to have more than a couple drinks and to have more adult fun, so why would you want to bring a baby with you??

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

I suspect a lot of the disconnect for some might come from a) sensationalizing media wanting to focus on the worst case scenario of a "bad drunky mommy" being so selfish as to subject her child to the worst bars have to offer and

b) a cultural difference - if you don't live in an area where there are a lot of those mixed-use bars, or get exposed to them much during off hours (or if you only ever go to bars during busy hours) that's the image you're going to have of then, and then of course it's like "WTF is people's problem?"

Buuuuut, IDK about some of the responses I've read on this post. I totally respect people not wanting to do it for their own kids, but I've seen some kind of awful choice-shaming. I'm sure it's not coming directly from a "your place is in the home, woman" place, but it kind of feels like... do you really assume that stopping by a bar during the daytime for a glass of wine means you shouldn't be allowed to have kids? Really? I actually didn't bother reading the article above into a little bit ago (I've read plenty of the type) and was expecting - from reactions - that it was all about horrible selfish hors leaving their kid at the bottle service table at a night club.

And some of the people referenced do sound kind of awful (but to be fair, I've seen very similar behavior at the Olive Garden I used to work at. I don't think shitty parenting w/ added alcohol is limited to bars by any means), but the lead guy? Who (from the what I can see in the pic) seems to be at an upscale, not crowded place, who only takes her there before 7pm, who seems respectful of the environment and of the baby...

I have trouble seeing how having a drink at home alone (and the article makes a very good point that with the tiny ass apartments in NYC, entertaining more than a friend and a half) is automatically better than going out in a social environment and doing the same. And with the recent stories I've seen about that Long Island mom who - from everything I've seen - was isolated and depressed and hiding her drinking, driving around with a liter of vodka under seat and killed an SUV of her own kids and others...

IDK. It seems like being a parent can in some circumstances be kind of socially isolating, and not everyone can drop the kind of cash that a babysitter and a full night out, or do it terribly regularly. A lot of the commenters in this post seem to believe that if you can't do it "right", you should be required to stay home, and that drinking home alone with your baby is intrinsically better than taking her to an appropriate bar - surrounded by other adults.... and most likely, keeping your behavior even more in check *because* you're "the chick with the baby in the bar".

... And I'm not so sure. I think that all things being equal, blowing off steam by drinking at home alone (where there are no external limits, no one to say 'hey, I think you've had one to many') might be more likely to lead to problematic behavior than a dose of grown up interaction and beer with your kid sleeping in the stroller beside you. Of course you could just not drink at all, not want a life outside your kid at all, or go back in time and manage to have a life/family situation/financial situation where you're privileged enough to have baby sitters or a spouse or a mom down the street to take the kid whenever you need a break.

But if you want to fight the stir crazy by taking a walk for a few blocks, dropping ten bucks on a beer (or hell, even a couple of sodas) sitting at an appropriate bar with some friends or a book... I guess I can get judging that, or feeling the need to admonish the mom not to take her baby to a "bad bar" at midnight, or that not being your thing. But the "some people shouldn't have kids" stuff in reaction to that choice that I've read in this thread smacks as kind of creepy to me. And kind of... IDK "good mommies and daddies should sit home and have no life beyond their child, unless that life is something that I would judge as appropriate for my circumstances."

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Of course you could just not drink at all, not want a life outside your kid at all, or go back in time and manage to have a life/family situation/financial situation where you're privileged enough to have baby sitters or a spouse or a mom down the street to take the kid whenever you need a break.


Surely that is a bit of an overreaction - there is nothing wrong about having alcohol with dinner (or even lunch) in moderation, or occasionally going for a night out with proper arrangements. But I honestly think that when you become a parent, certain things change and you need to work around that.

I am one of those parents who takes my toddler most places - restaurants, museums, even bookstores. We travel with her, too. I am hardly a 'stay at home and mind the cradle all day' type. I suppose if someone wants to take a kid to a bar on a quiet afternoon to have a snack/drink that's one thing. When I read that article I didn't get a sense of someone going to a neighborhood bar for brunch and having a drink with your meal (people around where I live do it often enough and nobody bats an eye) but of people going out at night, doing nothing good for either their children or the other patrons in the process.

All the bars I can think of, from nice to not so nice - are not appropriate for a child (even if you don't want to think about other patrons) once happy hour starts. If you must drink in the evening outside, go to a restaurant, they all have liquor licenses.

btw, I live in an urban environment very similar to Brooklyn with a lot of bars that do nice lunches/brunches/whatever. But none of them are appropriate for a kid after 5pm. None.

pt 1

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

"When I read that article I didn't get a sense of someone going to a neighborhood bar for brunch and having a drink with your meal (people around where I live do it often enough and nobody bats an eye) but of people going out at night, doing nothing good for either their children or the other patrons in the process."

I guess that's where we differ, because when I read that article, I got the sense of *both* the people going out at night (bad) and people like the dude who enjoy a beer in a low key local place during appropriate hours (completely different story). To be judgy of the former makes perfect sense, of course. To lump the latter in with the former seems... like over kill. It would be easy to be judgy if they were all towing their infants into night clubs, but the impression I got from the article is that there are a range of individuals engaging in a range of behaviors in a range of bars at a range of times. Which makes the issue at hand much more complicated than "NO BABIES IN BARS EVER EVER".

That one dude clearly stated that he only brings his child to the bar before 7pm. (and for what it's worth, happy hour/crowded hour tends to start quite a bit later at a lot of NYC bars I've known, I know plenty places that are virtual ghost towns until at least 9, and back when I lived in the city proper and went drinking with friends, most of us wouldn't bother leaving the apartment until ten). The article definitely profiles people who sound like selfish douches who take their kids to inappropriate bars at inappropriate times and yeah, I'm just as judgy about them as you are.

But your neighborhood isn't necessarily my neighborhood, and your bars aren't necessarily my bars, and maybe where you live all your bars turn into dark holes of sketch drunks at 5pm on the dot, but... at least near me, I can think of more than a few that don't start getting remotely "fun" until 8pm at least. I think it's absolutely worth debating whether there should be cut offs (no kids after 5pm or 7pm or whatever), and whether people with kids should defer to the establishments rather than expecting the establisments to bend to their needs...

But that's really not how this post (and some of the comments read). It read like "NO KIDS IN BARS EVER EVER FULL STOP AND IF YOU DO YOU'RE SOMEONE WHO SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAVE KIDS WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU." I think there are plenty of selfish parents out there who are unwilling to change their lifestyle (as of course, they should) when they have kids. And that's too bad. But to automatically assume that that's what happening when someone stops by an appropriate bar during an appropriate hour for that bar... seems a little extreme.

To say "that's never appropriate" seems... I don't know, it seems like something, when you don't know the person's circumstances, and you haven't seen the "bar" in question at the hour in question. And the guy pictured... who by all appearances was using good judgment and using the bar during a quiet time as the equivalent of a coffee shop... to look at that choice and say "some people shouldn't have kids" is kind of horrible to me. And makes me think a lot worse of the person who said it than it does of the dude who enjoyed a beer, during the daylight hours, in a place with stemware, with his daughter on his knee. And the impression I got was that that dude's behavior was a hell of a lot closer to the "neighborhood pub in the afternoon" that you approve of than the "tow your stroller the nightclub."
(cont'd)

pt 2

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

I don't think the line between "Bar that is bad for babies" and "nice friendly brunchy restaurant place that happens to have a bar" is nearly as clear cut as you seem to think it is. I absolutely agree that people should(ETA:n't. They shouldn't) haul their kids around like inconvenient knapsacks wherever they damn well please - I've seen that behavior, I've seen babies in bars during inappropriate hours, and I wholeheartedly disapprove.

But I've also seen plenty of places that - until 10pm at least - are all but indistinguishable from the bar area of your average nice restaurant, and are damn near empty. And that before sunset are perfectly nice places to sit that are full of sunlight and fresh air and people who are a hell of a lot better behaved than those at your average Chuck E Cheese. I'm guessing that part of the disconnect here might be that you might walk or drive by one of those and label it "restaurant" in your head, wheras I'm going to label it a bar.

And to lump a mom who wants to go out and have a drink at one of those - as long as she's exercising good judgement, natch - with the selfish douches who stick their giant carriages in the aisle and ignore their kids and let them scream their heads off (behavior that's just as assholish in a "nice family restaurant" and that I'm telling you, I saw all the time at my Olive Garden, right up to closing at 11pm)... seems unfair.

Maybe every bar in your area fills with assholes at 5pm sharp, but like I said, there are plenty near me that are a lot more sedate, relaxed, and relatively child friendly until at least 7pm. And the judginess in this post and the comments didn't exactly say "well, going to bars once they fill up with people is wrong, and in my area that hour is 5pm, so everyone should stay out of all bars with babies until 5pm". It said, essentially, "bars are never appropriate for babies, ever, and anyone who does otherwise is engaging in bad parenting.

And I think the article was trying to get across that it's a lot more complicated situation than that.

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

"occasionally
going for a night out with proper arrangements"

Also, I'm not sure I understand why you should be limited to only a full night out with proper arrangements. Obviously, you've got to change your behavior once you have kids, no one (except the baby at night in a crowded bar folks in the article) is arguing that. But I just don't understand why it's got to be all or nothing, or why people should have to forgo an inexpensive mental health break for an hour in the early evening... or why a doing that at a noisy Applebees "restaurant" is okay while doing it at an appropriate not-yet-crowded bar is bad. Or why as long as you have a full meal with your drink, it's okay, while going out for a half hour and having a single beer is that much worse. *shrug*

[mishane.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of it definitely has to do with your first point. I think when the word 'bar' gets used, people immediately think dark, raucous, dangerous, skeezy. And maybe it'll be harder to debate this with others who don't live in a very metropolitan area. Because not all bars are like that.

I agree with most of what you say but either way you (or anyone else puts it), it will always be a sensitive subject, especially when talking about parenting. There's no one right/wrong way to do it and there certainly shouldn't be any kind of shaming going on.

And this is all dependent upon the situation, person, locations, everything so it's hard to say a definite yes/no answer. :/

[svilleficrecs.livejournal.com]

I was also confused by the reference (IDK if it was in the article or a comment) to the presence of kids meaning you're limiting the patrons ability to smoke. In NYC there's been no smoking in bars or restaurants (including in the outdoor seating) for over ten years. Pre smoking ban, I'd be behind the "no babies in bars ever, full stop" brigade.

But ... yeah, I do suspect that a lot of the autojudge behavior probably has a lot to do with people whose picture of bars is universally "dark dangerous skeezy". There's a really lovely place right up the street from me that is unquestionably a bar, but is also bright and open and an art gallery with rotating installations from local artists. It opens at 5pm, serves a nice dinner until 10pm, and rarely gets more than 1/4 full before 9pm.

Would I look funny at people who bring their babies in after, say, 8pm? Sure. But before 7pm, the time listed by the guy in the article, which is a pretty standard "when things start to get jumping" time in my area, I have a very hard time seeing a problem w/ a well behaved kid chilling with the grown ups and enjoying themselves while their parents enjoy some adult company.

But according to some of the commenters in this thread, people like that - people who are doing the same thing at least one of the people listed in the article were doing - shouldn't be allowed to be parents. Which... that's all I really took issue with. Not the judgyness of the morons who drag their kids out to crowded bars at night. Of course that's bad for the kids and the bars. But the admonishment that bringing any baby to any bar ever is automatically bad parenting and there's "never any reason" and no good can come from it. ...

[ambergold.livejournal.com]

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

:(

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It's like - in which universe is this a good idea? For anyone involved?

[(Anonymous)]

Some people do not deserve to have chidren....

Emma

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Indeed.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I have to say that some of the places near me are not loud, foot-stompy music type bars until late at night; they're more like (absolutely no smoking) pubs with food. I don't think there's really a huge problem with bringing a kid into a place that serves alcohol and that's largely empty during the daytime and from which smoking has absolutely been outlawed.

Obviously, none of this would be the case at, say, 10 p.m. or something when your baby should be sound asleep in his or her own crib :D

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I don't know - when I think a bar I think the stereotype - if it's a restaurant that turns into a bar at night, that's a different matter.

(I also have largely puritan views on exposing children to a lot of potentially bingey drinking that happens in bars but that's a separate topic).

[syrenstar.livejournal.com]

Times have changed and a bar is different from a local pub but every weekend my dad took my brother and I to the pub and we weren't the only kids there either. It was usually fun too.

IMO it depends on the type of bar, somewhere with loud music and your typical Saturday night crowd is definitely no place for children but I wouldn't blink about children being in the local at a kid friendly time.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I am not familiar with the way pubs are overseas - I can only speak to bars in the US - and I have never yet been in one that I thought a fit place for a child :)

[uisceros.livejournal.com]

Agree, totally and relentlessly. Bad for the kid, bad for the other people.

And speaking as a childless person who often has to endure the result of parents who allow their kids to run wild in restaurants/theaters/anywhere public, thank you for being the good kind of parent by being considerate of others!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I always hated loud kids in restaurant so I act with my kid accordingly (It has resulted in a number of truncated meals but oh well, I love her anyway :P...)

I may be a prude but I think exposing a small child to a casual excess drinking is not good.

[uisceros.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're a prude for that! I have a ton of nephews and a niece, and I've seen how simple things like drinking in front of them, lying blatantly, and generally setting a bad example has totally screwed them up (my sibling are not the best parents in the world). And thus why I tend to be conservative in my views of proper child-raising.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I mean - I don't think your child shouldn't see you drink a glass of wine with dinner or similar but a bar is a whole other level. Weird. People bring kids into the oddest places. I still remembering going to a midnight screening of Peter Jackson's King Kong (a 3 hour movie) and there were people who brought 5 yr olds.

[dredsama.livejournal.com]

Sorry, long time lurker here just putting my two cents in.

I was raised in a bar, as were my sister and brother. My granddad ran it, my grandmother was a cook there, and my (single) mother was a bartender. After school we would always walk to the bar, grab a soda and sit down at a table in the corner to do our homework. When we were done we'd go out and play in the woods nearby, play basketball with the hoop they'd set up, or hook up our video game console to the TV that they usually ran news on. We'd play pool (my brother got so good he joined a league later on) and actually got to know, and enjoy the company of, the regulars.
We never ran around annoyingly like rule-less kids, our mother taught us to behave and be respectful of our surroundings. Inside the bar we were quite and had inside voices, if we went outside we acted like kids.
On Sundays they would have a brunch special and families would bring their kids in to eat and play around which my granddad loved.

Sorry bout rambling
All I'm trying to say is that, from my (maybe skewed) perspective, it's not entirely a bad thing. *lurks away again*

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

That's a really interesting story. I think it's different if your family works/owns the place - it's not like your family chose it as a hang out spot, you know :)

[lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com]

I don't get it either. I mean I do if it's a Sunday afternoon and it's one of those places that have outside seating and it's lovely day, etc, etc. But then they're not really functioning as bars, are they? I have no idea why you'd take one to a bar at 8 and then expect people to behave themselves because of your child. It would annoy me double if I'd shelled out for a babysitter so I could hang out around adults.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Exactly. We have a number of places here that do brunch/lunch that is good with outdoor tables and families etc but in the evening are loud meet-up bars. The thought of taking a kid to one when it's in its bar phase and not a restaurant one is freaky. And if I were a bar-hopper, I'd be irritated to be next to a kid. Not to mention nobody will convince me it's not bad parenting to expose your kid to language and rabid drinking like that.

[octavia-b.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on the bar/pub quite honestly. Around here there are loads and loads of extremely family-friendly bars where I have no problem taking my kids. The family crowds tend to move out around 9:30ish and then the second shift of young childless people start to turn up. I actually think it's quite lovely. Our favourite bar even has a facepainter and a balloon artist turn up on a Friday night to entertain the littlies while the parents catch up.

Nightclubs? Not so much. I'd draw the line at that.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I just find it freaky to bring a kid to a bar. It's one thing if it's a restaurant that turns into a bar at night (there are plenty of places like that where I live - they serve food and at lunch it's like any other place but at night it's a bar) but a genuine bar? I don't know, in my head it does not compute.

[thinking-lotus.livejournal.com]

As a Brooklynite, I wouldn't take my son to a late-night bar (though he is 13 now) but I am familiar with this debate and I kind of think it's getting ridiculous now. We are mostly talking about parents going to grab a beer in the early evening at their local bar down the street. Plus, there's no smoking in bars in NYC, so it's not like they're a horrible environment when they've just opened. They're quite pleasant actually.

Although, speaking as a Brooklyn parent, I get annoyed with the parents who are all like "I HAVE A BABY NOW I AM SPESHUL" because my having a baby in NYC predated the time of EVERYONE having a baby in NYC, and I got yelled at plenty by early-20-somethings, who are all no doubt mothers of 3 by now, for daring to impinge on their playgrounds with my child-bearing, stroller-pushing ways.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It just seems so weird to me - if you need a beer so badly, buy it at a grocery store. I don't know how pleasant it is inside - it's still - to me a bar is the last place you bring your kids other than a strip show and similar events.

[autumn-yaar.livejournal.com]

Secondhand smoke! :\

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

NYC actually has a smoking ban in bars/restaurants so they are OK on that score.

[mishane.livejournal.com]

GOD I'm so happy about that. I'm so used to my smoke free bars that when I was in Philly last month, I almost complained about all the smokers before I remembered, "Er, I'm not in NY!".

I think NJ has a ban where you can't smoke 20 feet in front of a public building. GOOD. It's nice not to have my clothes smelling like smoke.

tl;dr

[mishane.livejournal.com]

Jumping in because this debate is everywhere here. They were talking about it nonstop on the radio and then on TV and my friends with children in NYC all have their own comments on it.

I'm torn because, as one person said above, all bars are not the same in Brooklyn/Manhattan/Queens. On any given block you'll find 5 different kinds of bars, dives/nice restaurant bars/cafe bars/pubs/etc. Most of them I would never bring a kid into but some are really nice and cater to a more classy environment. I'm talking a nice outdoor cafe that you can have a glass of wine or sit inside at the bar area. Bright, sunny, pretty.

There's also an issue of the time you go. I'd never bring a kid to a bar after 5PM. The after work rush happens around 4 or 5 (and that's when the Happy Hours usually start) so definitely not an environment to bring a child to.

The other issues that came up were that of: single parents shouldn't miss out on social life just because of a child, hiring a babysitter for a few hours during the day is a waste, especially since it's just the daytime, etc etc. Someone above mentioned the fact that NYC is not a 'get in your car, drive to a bar' city which is especially a huge point. My friend lives in Greenpoint (Brooklyn), he's a single dad and two steps from his apartment are 2 bars, one very nice during the day and I know he's gone there on several occasions with his 3 year old son. It's not a place he has to drive to, it's a place where if he gets a call from a friend, he walks out his apartment with Reed and grabs a drink. It would be pointless for him to hire a babysitter for an hour (and it's not cheap or easy to find someone that will babysit at 2 or 3 PM, unless he signs up for an agency) and he can't leave his son at home.

I don't know, this will probably just be one of those issues that will have two very polar opposite sides. I'm just surprised it took this long to get in the media; I mean I've seen it quite a few times.

Re: tl;dr

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I'd never bring a kid to a bar after 5PM. The after work rush happens around 4 or 5

That's my point. When I think of bar-hopping parents that is what I think about. (Would anyone even notice if a parent was at a bar at 12pm on a Wednesday? There is nobody there. There'd be no debate :P)