Musings on Tae Ha and Un Nyun

[dangermousie]

After the latest episode of Chuno (and finally having a chance to watch ep 12 with subs), you know what I am interested in even more than how Tae Ha and Dae Gil are going to get out of the torture chamber?

It's how Tae Ha is going to deal with his new knowledge that his wife is a runaway slave herself.

I was struck, during his adorable marriage proposal in ep 12, by how grateful (and a little amazed) he was that a noble lady wanted to marry someone like him. But that is the thing - Tae Ha may have been falsely convicted/enslaved 2 years ago but he was born a nobleman and he's been a nobleman his entire life until then. And not just some nobleman but a very high-ranking one - an important General, the Crown Prince's best friend. He never viewed himself as a slave, just someone who submitted to a wrong for a higher cause - so he'd be alive to carry a last mission for the Crown Prince. And if the political faction in which he is one of the leaders succeeds, his noble status would be more than restored. As soon as he reaches the co-conspirators in ep 12, they give him his proper outfit, silks and peacock feathers and all.

But Un Nyun? She may masquerade as a noblewoman, but she was born a slave, child of slaves, and only achieved her status by fraud. She is the genuine article.

And I don't know how Tae Ha will cope with it - he is an honorable man and he loves her, but he is a man of his times and his upbringing. It's pretty significant that his revolution isn't some sort of a populist workers' paradise idea of a classless society - he would want a society where the government is just, which would mean, in part, that people cannot be enslaved unjustly or, when slaves, cannot be treated badly - but I doubt he is against slavery per se. I am sure when he was a General he had slaves in his household. Now, being Tae Ha, I am sure they were treated well - fed and housed adequately, and he never went around sleeping with slave girls (the way Dae Gil's repulsive father did). But I don't think it ever occurred to him to free them any more than it would have occurred to him to fly.

But now he is confronted with the fact that the person he loves most in this world is part of that system - she is no aristocrat wrongfully wrenched out of her place (the way he was). No, she is someone who would have still been a slave even if his just society came to pass. It's basically a symbol of the basic unjustness of the entire system of society and I wonder how he will take it.

But then this drama does seem to make sure to demonstrate how much of a farce all these restrictions are - I am struck with the scene of all these competent men - scholars and soldiers - grovelling on the ground before a 3-year-old boy who is playing with his socks, because of whose blood he has in him. It does not occur to any of them (not even Tae Ha), how absurd that all is. Every character in this society is a slave - even the evil Minister can die on the King's whim, and the King is subject to the control of the Qing envoy who is under control of the Qing emperor. No way out. And no genuine upward mobility either - not any that is not bought by fraud. Fun place to live, that.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I realized not so long ago that we love "heros" that we might "hate" in real life (or stamped their final goals as "wrong" in our societies).

-Ta Hae thinks slavery (and traditional Korean social order) is OK and fair in its own ways. And I'm pretty sure Un Hyun (?) his new wife would have slaves herself!

-Park Kyu of Tamra works for that same tyrannical order and has slaves... and he's obviously OK with that.

-Iljimae wants to restore his own family in that very same order. Not change it.

...etc.

So very interesting.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I think holding people of very different cultures to our standards is always problematic - certain basics should always be observed for me to like a character as a good person - he/she has to be kind, brave, capable of loving etc. But to hold a person who lives in a slave-holding society (surrounded by other slave-holding societies and being this way for 2000 yrs) responsible for not seeing abolition of slavery is good is asking too much, I agree.

Just as I would find it weird if Tae Ha suddenly started advocating for female suffrage.

The only drama hero I saw who transcended being bound by society was Hong Gil Dong, in part because he was a slave from birth - but as HGD proved, transcend too much too fast and you can't exist in this world and will be killed.

[(Anonymous)]

It reminds me about what a character in Star Trek Voyager (yes!) said about someone's ancestor (and that "someone" was disappointed by her ancestor).
He said something like "She didn't know she was supposed to live by your standards."

And that's something I always want to remember when I think about History and foreign cultures!

Emma

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, I was pondering on the same thing myself. But their separation in the p. 16 was very sweet (I am pretty sure DG spilled the beans by that time). Plus - I can't believe TH saw UN's scar and didn't understand where it is coming from. But we will see. They had DG transforming from "I want to free all slaves so that we can marry" to "who are you here speaking to me, a slave girl?" so I won't be too surprised with anything here. But still - my bet is on TH coping reasonably well here, after an understandable "Why did you have me believe otherwise?" period , may be.

Another thing I was pondering about is - I wish UN told TH everything BEFORE they got married, or at least refuse him under some pretense. I didn't think about it at first but - what does it say about your feelings for your spouse if you hide something so big?

But, yes - I am not surprised everyone considers slavery just as it should be.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

(I am pretty sure DG spilled the beans by that time).

Actually, no. I mean by that point it came out that DG is her ex, but TH only learned UN used to be a slave during the fight in the field - he's had no interaction with UN since that time.

To steal an excellent soompi translation by hjkomo:

TH: You lack the skills and will to defeat me. The past you had with someone you once loved...is what has saved you today.
DG: WHO IS WHOSE LOVE?!!! You think I would have given my heart to a lunatic house slave?
TH: Slave...you say... Who are you calling a slave?
More fighting.
DG slices off TH's topknot.
TH: Who are you calling a slave?! Are you jabbering that my wife is a slave?!
TH remembers conversations with HW –
TH: It's not "Naeuri", it's "Husband".
HW: "It's very difficult for me to call you that. No matter how hard I try, I don’t believe I have that right."
"There's nothing worse than being a slave."
"I am not a slave."
TH (in shock, puts the pieces together but still in denial): She's not a slave!
DG charges. They fight, then lose their weapons...and fight in hand-to-hand combat.

Cut to HW.

DG and TH still fighting, but they're exhausted and can barely take swings at each other.
They keep punching each other and then finally collapse...with DG's head on TH's stomach.
TH: Tell me...that she wasn't a slave…
DG: Don't ask about the past...it was all burned away...

But yes, I am sure he still loves her and will get over it, but it will be something he will need to deal with.

what does it say about your feelings for your spouse if you hide something so big?

I think she's repressed that part of herself for so long she simply couldn't. And she tried to tell him after marriage but he hushed her (because she thought she was going to talk about past lovers not past slavery).

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the translation!

If I was him I would have found it hard to get over something as big (especially remembering all her haughtiness "there is no worst thing than slavery") . I can just project my own feelings - I don't care for slavery but if my spouse hid something as big from me it would have shattered my world badly. But it is just my personal thing - being truthful to your spouse. It kind of makes sense that he loses the will to fight here, though. I have a hope that TH is nothing like me, though.

I hope they won't spoil my Tae Ha here - I might give up watching period dramas altogether if this happens. ** is worried **

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I don't think her comment about no worse thing than slavery was haughtiness, it was experience.

I am sure they are not messing with Tae Ha's nobility of character in any way, whatever else happens. From previews he looks still awesome - I am sure he will be bitter over betrayal of trust (and probably jealous mmmmm) but I am sure he would never do anything ignoble.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I am sure he will be bitter over betrayal of trust (and probably jealous mmmmm)

I am pretty ready for TH feeling jealous and angry, but then deciding that slavery is wrong and they need to stop it. It might make his character even more interesting. I had more thought on this - judging on what we have seen of him (the way he touched his guy's foreheads, for example) I don't think he'd be acting high and mighty with her. I think he'd be good to her at the end.

Onw of the things that I found interesting that although they had slavery people seem to be escaping all the time. Their slavery was somewhat less "final"? You know, like in Russia in 18th century - slaves literally had no where to go. Here it seems that we saw quite few examples of slaves escaping?

[(Anonymous)]

Translated from a French book about ancient Korean society:

"Between the fourteenth and sixteenth century, 30-40% of the Korean population were slaves (nobi).... In 1484, public slaves // and here they speak only of the public slaves!!! // numbered around 450 000 and roughly 100 000 of them were on the run (that means around a quarter of them!)..."

Emma

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Oh wow - that is fascinating. And incredible. Those are huge numbers.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

To Emma: I somehow lost your awesome comment. This makes sense - if they had 40% of population as slaves, I guess it would have been really hard to keep good track of them all and no wonder they had so many escapees (and probably a large percent of successful escapees).

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I don't know if he'll go as far as all slavery being evil but I am sure he will be fine with her past (eventually).

I realized why people like TH or Iljimae or similar even if they are so heroic never seem to think to abolish the system itself - because if the system worked properly they'd never be slaves - to them all that's necessary is to fix the system so people couldn't be ejected from their rank wrongly. They don't see anything wrong with ranks per se. But for people like Eop Bok and his slave coconspirators (or Hong Gil Dong from HGD), they get so radical precisely because they view it so differently - no matter how just the Korean ruler and how well-applied the current system, they'd still would be slaves, so they want to dismantle the whole thing.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I dunno - I as far I remember from the history, slavery up to that day and age (up to 17th century) was looked upon pretty much as "as it should be" by the masters and slaves themselves. I am actually not sure how it will go in Chuno - I think the first slave revolts started happening in 17th century in all countries (and yes, they were initiated by serfs - there was long time before Decabrists came along) so I think we'll be getting something of the sort here, and I hope to see both Tae Ha and DG involved or at least, sympathetic. But these ideas ("slavery is bad") were just starting to emerge, up to then it was all "normal".

Hong Gil Gond-the-drama was pretty modern-day creation (projecting modern day ideas to the "historical" setting), I don't take it seriously as any indication of how things were back then. I remember from what was said on soompi, the real Hong Gil Dong story doesn't end with him trying to abolish slavery, it ends with him being a king in some other country (with slaves).

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I don't take it seriously as any indication of how things were back then.

Oh, I don't either. But I thought that it made sense that only a person like GD or the rebel slaves in much-more-historically-on-point Chuno would be for world order change - only someone who had no chance at all under normal society would conceive its overthrow (makes me think of Giovagnolli's Spartacus). I think there was a slave rebellion in Korea in 17th century. Which - could be interesting if this comes up.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, DG had a "personal" reason (and we see that this was a personal reason, as soon as he lost UN he lost all inclination to free slaves, so yes - in a way this shows that the ruling class is not ready to free anyone) and the slaves are so oppressed that they can't cope anymore (everything starts with the guy whom DG caught at the very beginning). TH hasn't even thought about the slavery yet (may be just in very vague form "people are suffering" - he just doesn't understand yet too) .

I used to be interested in the history of slave revolts (in Russia) and as far as I remember the way the things went was something like this: slaves get fed up with slavery (usually during some bad years), they revolt and their revolt sort of opens the eyes of forward-minded people of ruling class to the fact that "NO, slaves don't want to be slaves" and then eventually the forward-minded people of the ruling class press on and on until the slavery is abolished (as it happened in Russia and USA).

I am almost sure they are leading towards a slave revolt in Chuno (but there is too many eps left already!).

The director, Kwak Jung Hwan , seem to have a particular interest in slavery/cast system matters. "Conspiracy in the Court" is all about this too. And two male protagonists in CiC are so much like DG and TH. I am not sure, though, you mentioned there is much about politics in CiC, I haven't seen to much about politics yet (the end of the ep.2). It is quite plotty, though.

[cleobulle.livejournal.com]

That's *exactly* what I've been wondering ever since I found out that TH had not guessed that UN was a slave. And I was pretty surprised actually. The writers sure blew some dust into our eyes countless times with that ever since Th saw the scar on UN's chest.

I agree 100% with your assessment of TH's character. And I particularly remember what he said to the other runaway slaves back in episode 2. I don't remember the exact words but he did say that when it came down to it they were not from the same world.

I would go as far as saying that TH is too proud. It's what has been bothering me a bit about his character from the first. He is a heroic character and there's much to admire there, but one firmly set in his own time and he would never have questioned the existence of slavery, just maybe the way some people were unjustly forced into it and the way some were mistreated. And, leaving aside the matter of slavery, I think that there was some truth in HWC's accusations back on Jeju before they started fighting. I'm not making excuses for him, because at this point, he doesn't deserve any, but I believe that TH might actually have looked down on him. Not consciously or anything, but it's a fact that he wasn't high-born as TH.

Regarding the matter of UN....I'd given up on a DG/UN ending for a long time now but, if the writers were still shooting for that (not them actually marrying but them acknowledging their loves to each other at least), they've just opened the back-door to that ending. There's no question of UN rejecting TH in any way. She might be devastated to realize that she is now irrevocably married while her first love is proven to be alive and apparently so very damaged, but she'll stay by TH's side. UN is a character that would never waver once she has made a decision and she is highly loyal. From the moment she got married, there was never any chance that she would choose go back to DG.

But if TH were the one to forsake her....now that would be another story. I can't see him doing anything bad to her but I truly cannot guess how he will react in the end and if he will ever be fully able to accept her as what she really is. I could see him distancing himself from her, appreciating all she's doing for the cause but still feeling betrayed. I believe he does love her but their relationship does not strike me as a great love story that would transcend any barriers. I might be wrong. We'll have to wait and see. In any case, his character has just become more interesting to me. He's always seemed a bit too blandely heroic to me compared the more interestingly unhinged DG so that's a good development.

And, for the life of me, I can't fathom why UN allowed herself to marry him without telling him her secret. That was badly done. The way TH kept interrupting her is not an excuse, she could have found a way to tell him. I understand why she didn't want to (and indeed, she might not even consider herself a slave deep down now) but I can't accept that she went ahead with the wedding. She's setting herself up for some possible heartbreak.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I think UN believed nobody was alive to reveal her secret. She thought DG was dead and her brother would never say. I could see why she quailed from the thought.

he did say that when it came down to it they were not from the same world.

I remember that. And I do think it might be even harder for him to deal with UN's true nature because of his own enslavement. The most devastated we have ever seen him (outside of the deaths of his wife and child 10 yrs ago) was that quiet scene back in ep 7? 8? when they actually have a time to rest in some normal house and while UN is asleep he unwinds his headband and touches his mark and looks at it in the mirror - his eyes are just heart-breaking in that scene. And then there is the scene with his men and their slave-marks. I think his 'I am different, different, different, not really a slave' is something he simply had to keep telling himself in order to function. But he can't use that excuse for UN. In a way, UN's love for him was a validation that he wasn't really a slave and was deprived of his place in society unjustly - a delicate, highborn lady could see he wasn't really a slave and love him - so it's vindication of sorts. Only the trick is she isn't highborn.

I won't buy CW's accusation at all though. CW seems to have an inferiority complex a mile wide and for an insecure, not-overly-good man being around someone like Shin Tae Ha must have been very trying - not only is he every inch the platonic ideal of an aristocrat (he puts the 'noble' in 'nobleman'), but he is a great warrior, has love AND loyalty of his officers, is BFF with the Crown Prince, and doesn't even have the decency to exhibit flaws. And then he saves CW's life so CW is in his debt. I don't think TH ever looked down on CW but I can see why CW would believe so (oh, I bet he really enjoyed those couple of years he used TH as a footstool).

I think Tae Ha loves Un Nyun greatly. He is a quiet, reserved man who is not too good with sweet-talking but there is no doubt in my mind because of his actions - he turned aside from his mission repeatedly to save her (when his mission was the reason he was even alive), and he even went into battle to save the Prince without any weapon (!!) simply so he could have his sword to her so she'd know he is coming back. Not to mention he went through the marriage with her despite the scholars nagging and threatening and telling him this is jeopardizing the cause. Is his love as great as DG's? I don't know - TH is not borderline insane the way DG is (DG's love is not healthy in the least, any more). Probably not - it's not as all-consuming, which is healthier, IMO. But he does love her, probably more than UN loves him (I think UN loves Tae Ha but nowhere near the all-consuming love she had for DG).

But even though he loves her a lot, this is a lot to swallow - not just her status (especially since apparently children's descent when matrilineally which is a problem for any future offspring) but also the fact that she hid such a huge thing from him. I can see him being cool to her for a while (which would enable some wonderful DG/UN scenes). But who knows. We'll see.

[cleobulle.livejournal.com]

The most devastated we have ever seen him (outside of the deaths of his wife and child 10 yrs ago) was that quiet scene back in ep 7? 8?
I think that was in episode 8. And was heartbreaking indeed


UN's love for him was a validation that he wasn't really a slave and was deprived of his place in society unjustly - a delicate, highborn lady could see he wasn't really a slave and love him - so it's vindication of sorts.
Yes, I agree. It would be the perfect validation for him. And the fact that he relied on it so heavily might make things more difficult now that he knows she isn't a noble.

Actually, I need to rewatch the past few episodes now because I'd been watching them believing he knew (or at least suspected) that she was a slave. I want to see their scenes together again with that new knowledge. His marriage proposal, especially. When I first watched it I thought he mentioned the mission and such because, as he's repeatedly said, he doesn't know how to talk to women. But now, I can also see the possibility that he thought he wasn't worthy of her and believed that it would be better to appeal to UN's sense of loyalty to get her to marry him. He didn't believe she would accept the proposal if it was just a man proposing to a woman he loves.


CW seems to have an inferiority complex a mile wide and for an insecure, not-overly-good man being around someone like Shin Tae Ha must have been very trying
I agree completely. But I can't help but wonder if TH's attitude might have not been unconsciously haughty at times. It wouldn't take much to set someone like CW off: a command given too curtly etc... It's just a theory of course.


he turned aside from his mission repeatedly to save her, and he even went into battle to save the Prince without any weapon (!!) simply so he could have his sword to her so she'd know he is coming back. Not to mention he went through the marriage with her despite the scholars nagging and threatening and telling him this is jeopardizing the cause.
It gets a bit tricky there. I don't deny that he loves her and that he somewhat jeopardized the cause by his action. But I can't help but think that he calculated very precisely to what degree he could jeopardize the cause. When he came back for her on Jeju, it was after making sure Hanseom had a way to get to the rendez vous point in case he didn't make it back. He defied the scholars on the subject of his marriage but he didn't consider it to be a threat to the mission the way they did. He knew UN would be an excellent caretaker for the Prince and didn't see how she could be a threat.

But if the mission was really in jeoparpdy (I don't consider that it truly was before), I think he would put his country first. And would we want him acting otherwise? Would UN want him acting otherwise? His whole character has been built up that way: the faithful General that will be loyal to the end. He might have learned to fight for his small slice of happiness (keeping UN with him) in a way he might not have 10 years ago, but if it really came down to saving the country or saving UN, I believe he would choose his country. If both the Prince and UN were about to be killed and he could save only one of them, whom do you think he would choose to save? For my part, I cannot see him choosing UN and letting an innocent child die. He would be heartbroken but I can't see him picking UN.

For that matter, I'm not sure even DG would pick UN over an innocent child. Only I think he wouldn't be able to live afterwards. He'd seek death most probably. But, as you mentioned, DG is border-line insane.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

tbh, I was a little surprised when it turned out TH didn't know his wife was a slave before. How did he think she got that burn on her chest? Cooking?

His marriage proposal, especially

I just watched that yesterday so it's fresh in my mind and once he recovers from the atrocious 'mission mission mission' proposal, and does that really lovely one, part of what he says is something to the effect of 'how can a slave propose to a noblewoman?' so you are right - it's a huge deal to him and part of the reason he was talking about missions wasn't just awkward treatment of ladies due to lack of experience, it was because he was afraid a noblewoman wouldn't want someone like him without further justifications.

But I can't help but think that he calculated very precisely to what degree he could jeopardize the cause.

Yes and no. His mission was almost kaput multiple times because he went to her rescue - for one he saddled himself on his desperate run with a dainty woman in a long dress who can't move faster than a walk. He is an inveterate do-gooder (he turned to her rescue from gangrape when he was almost fainting from wounds and he did not know her then) but that is something long-term and rather huge. Not to mention he left his sword (which is full of emotional significance to him) as a love-token, instead of taking it into battle - he went into battle weaponless just so the girl he likes would have some reassurance. That's almost DG-level nuttiness there :P

I agree he would put the little prince first (and UN would want him to) but in part because little prince is also a defenceless child (and quasi-son).

I do wonder if the drama would put him in that corner - having to chose btw UN and the mission's failure. The makers do so love to break their heroes.

It wouldn't take much to set someone like CW off: a command given too curtly etc

True. And I think CW interprets everything in worst light - e.g. TH sparing him was out of spirit of former friendship and largeness of spirit but CW takes it as not being even viewed as important enough to kill.

[cleobulle.livejournal.com]

which would enable some wonderful DG/UN scenes
Yeeessssss. I wish we'd get a couple of those. They both deserve the bittersweet comfort of having at least one civil conversation together.

On another note...Do you think TH will come in contact with the rebel slaves? If he does, seeing them in drags shooting yangbans left and right will not give him a good image of them. Which might make it harder for him to accept UN.

And also, although both are rebelling against the current regime, TH does not seek to abolish slavery. Come to think of it, does UN know this? Or does she believe that TH has the same dream that her Young Master? Would *she* be able to accept TH if she knew he was actually pro-slavery?

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I am worried DG/UN won't get any conversations in until one of them dies, which would not make me happy. I especially want to see them interact because it's one thing for UN to be gentle and loving to a messed-up, awful DG when it's first meeting, temporary and not long. But in the long run, how would she react to this very different man once the first pangs of reunion wear off?

Re: slaves. I do think they will meet them. It would make sense for stories to intersect - they've been narrowing down loose ends. TH might not approve of them killing random nobles (ironically DG might understand this vengeance quest better) but I don't know - they are not any more ruthless than the scholars, so who knows.

Re: UN. What I wonder is if UN and her brother had slaves. They had to - what upperclass family back then got along without any. It would look suspicious so they'd need to if for no other reason that this. I wonder how that must have been.