JPOP, JE, RPF and questions about interplay between performance and RL

[dangermousie]

This is going to be pretty random but I have a jpop related question.

I know very little of jpop except for what I've heard from winterspel and read on my flist (I have a number of JE and other jpop fans on my flist). I find it fascinating that JE (Johnny's Entertainment, an agency that runs most of the male jpop groups) seems to actually mix performance and officially-sanctioned RPF. In fact, it plays into RPF on purpose: there is deliberately created RPS fanservice and it's pretty in-your face if the Kat-Tun stuff I've seen is any example (no idea if other bands do it as well but winterspel indicated they do).

Now, I find it sociologically interesting and rather unique to Japan. My knowledge of Asian pop in general is pretty slim but I don't see anything like this in e.g. Taiwan. I mean, F4 is built around the premise 'we have four uber-hot guys' but not 'and they like to rip each other's clothes off off-stage' premise.

But that is not what my question is about. Since RPS seems to be so engraned and such a part of the style of the thing, how does it come into play when any of the JE boys actually end up with someone? Because I doubt all of them are gay, any more than all of them are straight. Does it wreck the fantasy and is it frowned upon? It can't be, at least dating-wise, because I know a lot of them are dating (women) but I wonder if that interferes with the image or do the fans completely appreciate this is a performance? And do all JE bands do this to a greater or lesser degree or just some and is KAT-TUN particularly a stand-out in that way?

And how about marriage? Is it a complete deal-breaker? Aka a kiss of death career-wise? Not just because of RPS/F but because that conclusively takes the idol in question out of the realm of possibility for fantasizing fans. Is it like earlier Bollywood, where if you wanted to be a leading man, you had to conceal if you were married? I know Kimura Takuya is married (and has kids!) but you know...he is Kimura Takuya (plus, I have no idea if SMAPxSMAP ever did RPS. But still, the marriage thing would be a problem on the Bollywood principle above). How about in general? Jpop seems to be so much more all-inclusive about image: it's not just singing ot videos or even acting but an all-round careful, complicated, all-encompassing image, so I wonder...

I am just so completely fascinated by the idea of public life as performance. Not to mention, official RPF fanservice.

Also, I don't feel like watching new doramas but instead am getting urge to rewatch Goong, one of my Top 10. My Top 10 in order are: 1. Mars 2. Pride 3. A Love to Kill 4. Meteor Garden 5. Goong 5. Full House (tie) 6. It Started with a Kiss 7. Forbidden Love 8. Silence (which would be way higher except it's so angsty it's making me want to slit my wrists). 9. Kurosagi 10. Tokyo Juliet. 10. Love Contract 10. Kamisama Mou Sukoshi Dake (tie, yes, I don't care that it adds to 12). Once I watch more episodes Tatta Hitotsu No Koi and Sang-Do, Let's Go to School might join them. I was going to watch Nobuta Wo Produce next but I think I've watched too many jdoramas in a row and am thinking of watching a twdrama next (there is nothing like a well-made twdrama) or maybe a kdrama because I have the most of those.

Comments

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

My vote goes to Damo.

ANGST!
SWORDS!
DOOMED OTP!
POLITICS!
ETERNAL(but doomed) LOVE!

kdrama, only 14 eps...

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It's only 14 eps? I thought it was 20+. Hmmm. It definitely inched up my list.

But I think after SH I am going to take a short historical break...I am going to finish Sang-Doo before starting any new ones and then it's probably going to be My Girl (both kdramas). Though I am very tempted both by Spring Waltz (kdrama) and Magic Ring (Joe Cheng! Twdrama).

I did get The Duelist in so might watch that. Yeah, yeah it's a historical :P

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Probably because it's 7 discs. But it's 14 epsm each ep almost exactly an hour. Though, if you recalculated it into an ep being 42~ like US shows, it'd be 20~

The Duelist is good. But it'll be used as an opportunity to pimp Damo, as there are similarities.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Heeee. I am not as much into swords stuff as you are but in measured doses it's excellent indeed :)

[ilanala]

From my rather limited experience, I can say that yes, a lot of the other JE groups do the fanservice thing (for example, go to this post and scroll down to the picspam part). I think KAT-TUN might do it more (or at least much more noticeably) because they're just more about the sex than a lot of other groups, but I've seen it in every group I've come across. Sometimes it's more cute than 'Let's rip each other's clothes off on stage', but it seems like there's always at least a little.

As for the fact that a lot of them are not actually gay...well, the fangirls don't care, at least the ones sane enough to know the difference between fanservice and real life. But some people are apparently a lot more neurotic. The only example I can think of is that one group did some sort of musical thing which involved a member kissing a girl (or actually just fading to black when he was about to kiss her), and some fans were so crazy about it that they had to cut that part out. And that wasn't even an actual girlfriend, so you can imagine how bad it would be then.

A lot of people seem to have the idea that JE boys are officially not allowed to date, but I'm pretty sure that's not actually true. The impression I get is that they try to keep fans from knowing about their relationships, but it's not clear whether that's to lend credibility to their fanservice or, more likely, because idols are supposed to be "available", at least hypothetically, for the fangirls. Kimura Takuya is apparently the exception to this (by virtue of being Kimura Takuya), although some of the others of his generation are apparently in established relationships without the fans freaking out too much. I suspect it matters more for the younger ones, but I don't know. It's really hard to find out about these things, what with all the rumors and the scary fangirls I don't want to go near...

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I find the whole pehnomenon really odd. If I like an artist, I have no interest in them as a person. The only other thing I want to know if what other songs/movies/etc they have out.

But I know that most of JE targeted fanbase are young teens and there the blur between fantasy and reality is a lot thinner.

[scottishlass.livejournal.com]

Wasn't it seen as the end of his career when Kimura-san announced his impending marriage? There is a vid on Youtube with the actual announcement he made in 2000 at a concert with SMAP. He is even apologizing to his fans to have to get married because his gf is pregnant (Gee man, you should have used Moving Rubber then if you're so apologetic).

I have noticed that a lot of idols either conceal they are in a steady relationship and say they are waiting for a traditional girl (that sounds like Halu saying Aki is a girl from the last century).

Duelist Dong-woo is so hot!!! And the colours!!!! OMG the colours!!!!
Even for a martial arts movie it is a very quiet film (Sad Eyes has only little dialogue) but visually it is overwhelming. I'm really tempted to make a fan vid with Rain's Sad Tango for the movie (both the protagonists had to take tango classes for martial arts training - you'll see why when you see them fighting).

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

There is a vid on Youtube with the actual announcement he made in 2000 at a concert with SMAP. He is even apologizing to his fans to have to get married because his gf is pregnant

I think it's my watching this vid a few weeks back that got me started thinking about this. I remember thinking 'jeez, man! Why are you apologizing? You are getting married not confessing to robbing a bank!'

Gee man, you should have used Moving Rubber then if you're so apologetic

RoFL. Maybe he did and that is why he 'got in trouble' as MR is a hair gel :p

And I am definitely watching Duelist soonest.

[scottishlass.livejournal.com]

OMG - it is HAIRGEL????? And then why does these things look like condoms in foil???? Jeesh we have a German condom company here who makes similar ads with just these kind of looking rubbers.
Condomi always has pink, blue, red, yellow plastic covers for their condoms. Yeesh, talking about a misunderstanding - cultural differences I love'em
ROTFLMAO :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I find this post very interesting - I was thinking about these things already for a while!

I don't know much about this, but I think initally RPF could stream from the fact that for some reason members of the opposite sex often find gay men attractive. I have a couple of gay friends, and may be it is just them , but they both seem to understand "what women wants" much better then many of my non-gay male friends.

I agree with scottishlass, I know many examples when steady relationship/marriage makes a very adverse impact on the popularity.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I don't find gay men attractive (if they are actors, I will find them attractive if they are playing a straight/bi character but not off screen) but I know a lot of people do.

I know many examples when steady relationship/marriage makes a very adverse impact on the popularity

That's true and I find it so weird. I mean, it's not as if you are ever going to meet that actor and hook up with them. I'd rather know they were grown-up enough to be capable of some committment (or actually I don't care what they are up to off-screen. Which is why JE thing is so alien to me).

[fivil.livejournal.com]

Is it like earlier Bollywood, where if you wanted to be a leading man, you had to conceal if you were married?
Omg another suuuper-funny thing about JeM - Salman being rejected as a hero because he's married when IRL he's one of the few stars who isn't married and it's an issue journalists constantly ask him about "When will you marry?" "Have you found true love?" etc.

And in case you missed it, here's my brief JeM fangirling comment: http://dangermousie.livejournal.com/587617.html?thread=5816929#t5816929

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks for linking me!

Yeah, JeM was awesome. And Akki is right, he did make me tear up. And Salman, oh Salman. How do I love you lately! (pssst, but more than SRK whose recent and upcoming movies fail to excite me).

Some of my thoughts on that matter

[dotintheshark.livejournal.com]

I think while JE does not (cannot) forbid the boys to date, it is not exactly happy when they do it and get discovered by the gossip papers. JE wants to present clean-cut, pretty idols, and as such they are expected to respect traditional values (like the senpai/kôhai relationship, which - though a vital part of how japanese society works, so to speak - is given much more importance in JE than in other comparable structures). They are also expected to display modesty, diligence, altruism, and to exhibit respect for society's rules in general. That is the reason why it is such a big scandal if a member of JE or of H!P, the female equivalent of JE, gets caught smoking underage. If s/he were a member of, say, an indies visual kei band, no one would give a damn. But as idols, they are supposed to be paragons of virtue, portraying the perfect boy- or girlfriend a fan might long for, or the kind of person a fan would want to be.

As to the fanservice - I still stand by my opinion that this special kind of fanservice comes from a long tradition, where elements of theatre arts like Kabuki and Takarazuka come into play. And if you want to go even further back, you could say that Kame, Jin and co. are, radically said, not even boys. They belong to what a anthropologist concerned with the development of homosexuality in Japan termed "a third gender", not man, not boy, not girl, but something combining all of these gender roles into a complex new one with specific properties. There have been voices in japanese showbiz expressing worry over the psychological health of the JE boys, accusing JE of producing "furyô shônen", which means anything from "bad and delinquent" to "unhealthy and disturbed", arguing that the boys are getting confused while still in their formative years by being made to crossdress or feel each other up on stage.

From my observations, there is a much greater distinction between "image of the group", "image of the management agency" and "image of the person" in Japan. This is why Jin gets to sway his hips in an absolutely pornographic manner (image of the band), but cannot be seen smoking in public (image of the agency) or dating a girl (his personal image) - he is supposed to be a sexy beast only on screen, but not off. Off screen, he needs to be a hard-working, barely sleeping, always looking out for his fellow band members and fans kind of person.
Had he chosen a different way of entrance into japanese showbiz than JE, for example as part of a rock group, no one would have thrown a fuss over him dating. Gossip papers would have reported it for the ever curious fan, but it would not have been something to condemn him for.
A similar logic applies to the big scandal over his decision to go abroad for linguistic studies for half a year. No one says it right out, "How can you be so egoistic?", but it's what many fans (and showbiz people) think.

Marriages are a big NONO for JE idols. Take the Hamasaki / Nagase relationship, for example. When Hamasaki got back from the US recently, Nagase flew over and accompanied her, sending new water down the rumour mills and prompting the JE management to release a clipped official statement that NO, there will never be a marriage. Like someone else already pointed out, they need to stay available for the fans, and a marriage would destroy the image that they are. Apart from that, a marriage would also mean that they are less willing to work 24 hours a day for JE, and when they get kids, society would frown upon the way JE treats some of their stars.

I'm getting off track, sorry! ^_^; And I swear, when I started typing, there was a point to this whole ramble. One can savely say, in my opinion, that especially with the advent of the internet and other media, idols are supposed to be idols 24/7 these days, not just on screen. While I don't think most of the JE boys are gay, I do think that they go through a period of confusion (as a male idol, I'd be confused too - someone makes me do a "blowjob" on stage in a society which still condemns gays- huh?). I'd love to get more insights into how these forms of "entertainment" affected their psychological development.

Re: Some of my thoughts on that matter

[winterspel.livejournal.com]

THANK YOU! I was hoping you could respond to this. I wish I'd know you'd posted before I posted mine....

Re: Some of my thoughts on that matter

[dotintheshark.livejournal.com]

No need to thank me! *hugs* And your post raises some very interesting
points. (And so much more eloquently! ^_^)

Re: Some of my thoughts on that matter

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the write-up!

As I confessed to winterspel below, I find the JE thing rather creepy for precisely the reasons you wrote about. I also think it's a bizarre extreme to go for fannish satisfaction (though ultimately it's for JE's pockets). I am a firm believer you work and you do your best, but then you have a private side/personal life and that's separate and so complete negation and control oer the latter really freaks me out.

I think that's part of the reason I could never get into JE (and I am just not much of a music person). I find the whole vibe really off-putting.

Re: Some of my thoughts on that matter

[dotintheshark.livejournal.com]

I understand that really well. Even though I am used to these aspects of JE by now and generally avoid to think much about them, there are times when it becomes too much even for me and I'm this close to just sit down and write a letter to JE. Not that it would change anything, but I'd feel better.

The whole of JE is like an on-going soap opera. And it is my firm belief that the person behind all this who is pulling the strings is not one Johnny Kitagawa, but his older sister Mary, who (of course!) is shrouded in mystery.

I'm glad that as a fan you also have the choice to just enjoy the dorama the boys do and ignore the rest. :)

Re: Some of my thoughts on that matter

[catdecember.livejournal.com]

omg, you explained it so well! *claps*

i think i've learned more about JE. its quite hard to explain them to other people, because it can come out shocking and might turn off that person. but thank you!

[winterspel.livejournal.com]

I'll be brief, because I've discussed most of this elsewhere. All the JE boys do fanservice to one extent or another. It's expected and common and mainstream, considering how big JE is in Japan.

I think the most important thing to understand (as I've said before) is the cultural context that the fanservice comes out of. Similarly there is a cultural context for the girly "look" that many of the boys have and the way they are showcased that highlights this.

I've shared this link before, but there is a ton of good cultural info in the comments to this post. There might also be something of interest in this.

You can google words like "bishounen," "yaoi," "shounen ai," "boys love," etc. and learn more about the cultural background. A huge part of why I love JE is similar to why I love jdorama - I'm impressed and fascinated by how much traditional culture comes through in such forms of popular entertainment.

I do think that the younger ones are not permitted to have girlfriends publically. I'm sure that other more experienced JE fans can answer this better with hard examples, but it is suspicious that Jin has been busted with a girlfriend a couple times and hasn't had as much work as others despite being one of the most popular idols consistently. Dating is fine so long as it doesn't hit the tabloids and newspapers. The older idols (over 25) probably have a much easier time and it's not an imperative to hide it, or they get better at being discreet. But there was a HUGE outcry against Kimura when he got married (and he was most definitely NOT under 25!!!). And conscious of his new status, his very next drama after marriage did NOT feature him in a leading romantic role (Hero), which was smart as it gave the public time to get used to him as a married man after he had spent many years as a romantic lead in dramas. Now, he's back to playing romantic leads.

Entertainment in Japan is extremely image-based and image-conscious. JE invests a lot of money and time in their idols and they're going to protect their investments by keeping them as marketable as possible. They're just not that marketable if they're publically dating girls. It's sad fact. And JE has gotten very good about playing both sides of this - in interviews and photoshoots, there is a lot of fanservice, but there is also a lot of questions about girls (what kind of girl do you like? What was your first "confession?" etc.) It makes the idols available to their predominately female fanbase in every way. It's very consciously done and there is a long tradition behind it. JE didn't just start yesterday - they've spent the last 30 years perfecting their formula, and it's obviously very successful.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It's very consciously done and there is a long tradition behind it. JE didn't just start yesterday - they've spent the last 30 years perfecting their formula, and it's obviously very successful.

I have to confess I actually find the near-total control and image spin pretty creepy. Very scifi dystopianish. It's not that they act gay on stage (or if they acted straight on stage or if they wore monkey suitsand spoke exclusively in Laotian on stage or whatever it is they do during the performance), it's the fact that they are supposed to maintain the image and nothing but off-screen, 24/7. especially, as ricchichan pointed out, some of them start out very young so hardly have full judgment to decide what they are doing. I think it's pretty unhealthy and wrong.

reposted because I can't type..

[winterspel.livejournal.com]

*shrug* It is what it is, and it works within the culture that produces it. Isn't it nice that you can enjoy them as actors in doramas and leave whatever you don't like behind? :) I'm sure the rest of the world has to do this on a regular basis with Western entertainment which also has a lot of things that others find incredibly wrong and distasteful.

As for me, I am a music fan, and I DO like some of the music, or I wouldn't be here. Music is how I got into KAT-TUN in the first place.

I can't like anything for its image - there has to be some artistic value that I get out of it. I have never in my whole life liked any guy just because he's hot. That's waaaaay too boring for me. If he's hot and talented somehow, then that is a different story. I love JE boys because they work hard, are multi-talented and I like what those talents give me: music, acting, dancing that I really enjoy. And yes, they're very pretty. :)

Do I love JE as an organization? No. I think it's like an entertainment mafia and is pretty scary. But just remember: almost all of these kids were put into this world by their parents and they still live with their families, certainly as youngsters and teenagers, but some even as adults. It's not like they don't have any normalcy in their lives at all.

Re: reposted because I can't type..

[catdecember.livejournal.com]

the talents' families may be in some sort of weird contract, don't you think?

you're right, the Talents are great but i'm not so sure if i like JE itself. its scary. :P

[ina]

This moves a bit away from your original question, but is a reaction to it and some of the comments I have seen.

Regarding the working of JE, one needs also keep in mind that they are not the only one in Japan who work that way. Mainstream musicians, actors, comedians and talents (the background people on variety shows) are employees of their respective talent agencies. And not like in Western entertainment, in which the artist employs an agent, manager etc.
That also means that the agency is the one who puts money into the artist first, they train them, gives them opportunities for work etc. If I need to explain that to someone I always compare it to the old Hollywood actor system, in which the studio decided on the image of the artist and also decided which movies they played. And they also controlled their private life, which included the relationships they could have. Which also means we are not that far away from having the same principle.
And all agencies hold auditions regularly, were everybody can go to.
And you need to keep in mind that the company – employee relationship is much stronger in Japan than here. Employees are expected to keep the image of their companies clean, it is part of their responsibility.
If Jin or Uchi misbehaves than that falls back on JE. Because of JE’s power they had it certainly easier to get their drama roles and publicity than as part of any other agency. They expected to give that back to JE.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

That's very interesting. I find the old Hollywood studio system also off-putting (they were all about media image as well, though a different one) but at least there the put-on behavior had to be less pervasive because of lack of intercommunication and huge number of news sources (internet etc) that mandate that in order to maintain a certain image you basically have to act 24/7.

[katranna.livejournal.com]

Hnmm, it's interesting that a lot of people are talking about how "if they were in a rock band, it would be ok," becaused a lot of the really flagrant homoerotic fanservice started with visual kei bands, I think. And yeah, in their case, sure they date and get married, but they try to keep that on the "down-low."

Also, while them getting married limits their marketability vis-a-vis female fan fantsy, I don't think it actually interferes all that much with the whole "we like to rip each others' clothes off." Fans of RPS always seem to see female relationships as separate fom male ones (just look at whether any other person dating anyone stops a slash fan from writing a fanfic about them), so it's easy enough to be all, "well yeah, he's supposedly with this girl and that's nice, but this guy is His Forever Passion and they do it in the off-hours anyway."

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Heh. I thought you'd chime in :)

Btw, no idea what visual kei bands are but the name sounds fun.

The whole thing reminds me of a scifi novel called 'Idoru' where the Japanese media company finally created a VR idol :)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I have really nothing to do with either fandoms, but it sounds a lot like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!