Lupin, Sirius and angsty messed-up favorites.

[dangermousie]

I found the coolest Harry Potter art site. It's at here. I love her art, and have the Harry in Lupin's office pic as my wallpaper.

I do want to talk about Lupin in this book. He really is a wonderful character and I am glad that it looks like he will be allowed to live and live happily at the end (he is not close to Harry and he has a significant other). I am so glad he and Tonks got together, not out of any particular passion for the ship (I never thought about it one way or another before this book), but because the man deserves a bit of happiness. He's had a very hard life: bitten as a child for no fault of his own, he's lost his three friends and now is completely alone, unemployable, ostracised, and trying to be a werewolf mole on DD's orders. His life sucks. When he refers to those outcast murdrerer werewolves as his "fellows" and "equals," no no no! Because that is SO wrong.

I am so struck by the fact that when Remus tells Harry about Fenrir, he says that for years, before he found out who bit him and why (child-preying psycho looking for revenge on Lupin's father), he felt sorry for the werewolf that bit him, knowing by then how painful it was to transform. That just made me stop and stare at the book. The person who bit him is the one whose fault it is that he can never have a normal life, that he experiences horrid pain every month, on the clock. He is the reason his whole life is wrecked. And Lupin was able to feel sorry for him. Now that is incredible. And makes me love Lupin almost as much as I loved Sirius (who still wins in the "my life is hell" sweepstakes.)

And I wonder how devastated, what a fool he felt, when he learned who it was that bit him, and how horribly hard it was for him to go back and pretend to be a good little henchman to Fenrir. Dumbledore does have a knack of asking others to do the most psychically damaging things (stick Sirius in that house, which is almost Azkaban redux for him, make Lupin go and cozy up to the man who ruined his life and do werevolfish things, if theories are correct make Snape kill him). Dumbledore is a hard taskmaster.

I do love that Lupin loses it as the death of Dumbledore. He doesn't have to be the strong adult there, the way he did with Sirius' death, but it's really the last of his supports cut off. Except for Tonks. I think that is another reason he gives in to her. He is dreadfully emotionally vulnerable at that point, and it makes him realize (probably) that he cannot be all alone, and he needs love.

The way he reacts to when Harry tells him that the reason DD trusted Snape was because Snape told him he was sorry he betrayed James ("Snape hated James")...once again. Poor poor Lupin. Those he trusts tend to betray him or die on him, don't they?

Also, learning more about werewolves, how they are considered Voldie supporters, how there are sociopaths among them that go and bite little kids for the heck of it, made me realize all the more what an amazing, true-spirited thing it was for the MWPP to stay friends with Lupin even after they find out. Especially James with his hatred of the Dark Arts, and Sirius with his horrible background and his rebellion against it.

Yet despite it all, the MWPP are friends with Lupin, they become animagi for his sake! That is why it always surprises me when some Snape fans see the MWPP as the popular kids picking on poor Snapey because he isn't cool. Just look at them! Leaving aside James who seems fairly normal in every respect (loving, well-off, pure-blood family), we have Peter who seems hardly like the "cool crowd" type, instead someone who normally would be bullied, we have Remus the bookish werewolf, and we have Sirius who comes from a nasty, abusive, pureblood family and rebels against everything they stand for. Hardly the Freddie Prinze Jr types, are they? (Actually, of all of them, it makes sense that Sirius is the one that loathes Snape the most, what with his background).

And now this is a complete tangent from what I've started out as writing, but does anyone know of a good Sirius meets James fic? Because they are closer than brothers and all, but when they first met (I doubt muggle-loving Potters and Pure Pride Blacks hung in the same circles), we had James the Dark Arts hater and Sirius, the eldest son of one of the oldest and Darkest families around. He must have felt pretty odd in Gryffindor the first few days. Forget all those Harry and Draco stories. James and Sirius is the one relationship (and I don't mean that in the slash sense) that really interests me.

Comments

[plazmah.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore is a hard taskmaster.

Word to that. I can only imagine what Snape and Dumbledore were argueing about near the forest. Snape's all like "I can't do this anymore, man!" and DD's all like "Stick to the plan, yo." \

Also, icon love!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Heh. I love the icon too.

And yes, DD and Snape: I wonder how that went down!

[phylogenetics.livejournal.com]

I'm not much of a Remus fan b/c I've always found 'nice' to be kind of boring, but certainly being forced to cozy up to Fenrir makes Remus' story much more interesting, all ripe with angst!Remus. Instead of nice Remus who got bitten and now is pariah from society, we get tortured!Remus forced to work with a man responsible for his current status in life. Hm...almost as angst as Good!Snape forced to betray his old Death Eater friends....

Of course, acceptance of Remus doesn't mean that MWPP can't be the "popular kids picking on Snape". I mean, there are cliques in schools where the hanger-ons are not cool themselves but pick on those that are less cool.

In other words, Snape was at the bottom of the coolness ladder and the MWPP were a bit ahead of him in that regard. Peter and Remus may even have been target for bullying if they weren't hanging around Sirus and James.

Sirius and James were just kids who thought they were better than Snape, and they were good to their friends, like Remus and Peter, that doesn't mean they can't also be cruel to people they dislike....like Snape. I see their behavior as typical of many adolescents. It's unfortunate that neither Snape nor Sirius has outgrown that tendency.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

But was Snape at the bottom of the coolness ladder? Well, to Gryffindors he was. Every Slytherin was. But to Slytherins? Who knows.

Basically, MWPP were not prejudiced evil gits, as they made friends with pretty untraditional people. Were they wrong to pick on Snape in that memory? Yes, of course. But Harry Jr., if he looked into a Pensieve and all he saw was when Harry was picking on Dudley at the beginning of OOTP would have a similar reaction. I just don't think either MWPP nor Snape were misunderstood little angels. I do think that James, Remus and Sirius all grew up into really good people. And as to Snape? Well, that would depend on whether he acted on DD's orders or not.

I don't think Sirius had much of a chance to outgrow any tendencies, considering his Azkaban residence. As to Snape? I think he is one of those people who is caught in thr past and relives the past grudges too much. He has a respected career, good position, friends (or at least DD). He should have moved on with his life. OTOH in normal circumstances he would have never had to come across Sirius again, let alone work with him.

As to angst!Remus, bring it on! :)

[phylogenetics.livejournal.com]

By the description in OotP it sounds like Snape wasn't that popular....even Harry made this observation...so yes, I think it's safe to assume that Snape wasn't that popular at school in general. My idea is that Snape was an easy target, and James and Sirius took their share in making him a target. I can handle that the MMWP were immature pricks, just as Snape was as well---hey, they were all 15, what did we expect?

I think Snape had other people who made fun of him too, but perhaps the enimity between him and James goes far deeper (kind of like Harry and Draco are 'arch enemies' even though other people also give Harry a hard time).

As for MWPP, I think we can assume three of them grew up to be honorable and I think Snape is an honorable person too, but that he made very poor choices. Jury's still out on Peter. Of course, Snape is still nasty and mean, petty and childish, and Sirius is equally childish and mean to people he hates. But you're right that Snape had the luxury of growing out of his teen angst and he choose not to. Sirius did not have that choice, and now never well.

Remus has potential for so much angst now....death of Sirius and James, now death of Dumbledore and seeming betrayal of Snape....his world is falling apart! And to top it off, he's hanging around a guy who bit him on purpose! Snape is still my favorite person, but Remus definitely has potential....

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Jury's still out on Peter.

Well, even if he repents at the end, I still say he's a horrible, rotten human being.

Of course, Snape is still nasty and mean, petty and childish, and Sirius is equally childish and mean to people he hates.

The thing that bothers me most about Snape is not his snapping at Sirius or Lupin. They have a backstory and are grown-ups who can take care of themselves. It's the way he treats children in his care: Harry (who has never done anything bad to him), Hermione, and above all, Neville. I find Snape interesting, but I don't like him.

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

I have to agree here. Just because MWPP were all misfits doesn't mean they couldn't bully. They were just different from Snape in that they found other people willing to accept them while Snape never did. And let's not forget that they chose Peter as part of the group, which was a horrible move on their part. Why did they bring him into the fold? Probably because he sucked up to them, judging from Sirius's reaction to the betrayal and Snape's memory. However Remus, James and Sirius became friends, it transcended their backgrounds. Considering that I don't see Snape sucking up to anyone, his personality would not recommend him to be accepted by the group. School kids run in packs and unfortunately for Snape, he didn't have a "pack" until he joined the DE. When he realized the DE was wrong all he had was DD. Snape has never seemed to "find a pack" when it comes to having friends.

And let's face it, they didn't just tease Snape in that memory, they humiliated him. And they enjoyed it. Because they were bored. No, I can't justify them doing that no matter how good of kids they were otherwise. Even Harry, who can be vicious sometimes, never humiliates like that group did.

And Sirius proves he can be just as petty as Snape can be, so there's no difference there.

[phylogenetics.livejournal.com]

And let's not forget that they chose Peter as part of the group, which was a horrible move on their part. Why did they bring him into the fold? Probably because he sucked up to them, judging from Sirius's reaction to the betrayal and Snape's memory. However Remus, James and Sirius became friends, it transcended their backgrounds. Considering that I don't see Snape sucking up to anyone, his personality would not recommend him to be accepted by the group. School kids run in packs and unfortunately for Snape, he didn't have a "pack" until he joined the DE.


Yeah, that sounds junior high, alright. Weaker kids get picked on until they can find stronger kids to hang on to, then they can help with the picking. I see Peter in that regard as well.

I actually think if Snape had been more 'diplomatic' toward James (for whatever reason they had hit it off wrong), James wouldn't have minded if Snape stuck around him. James doesn't strike me as terribly picky about a person's background (as stated in the essay, James accepted Remus), but he isn't the type to just 'get along' with everyone either...it's just that Snape did not take a liking to James (and vice versa) that made Snape a target. And that escalated to stuff like the humiliation we see of Snape...I'm sure they felt Snape deserved it just as much as Harry and Co felt Draco deserved to be turned into a ferret and bounced around as one.

God, I'm so glad I'm no longer in middle school....

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

Snape has the unfortunate personality trait of being extremely cynical and extremely arrogant. Both of those things would have put James off. Yes, Sirius could be cynical and arrogant too, but Sirius had a lighthearted streak to him that made him fun to be around. Snape seems like the dead serious type that just can't get a joke (he can, but his humor is tailored more towards deadpan sarcasm) and who spent a lot of time by himself. Being a Slytherin would make him a natural enemy and his personality would make it worse.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Basically, a case of chalk and cheese. I imagine he did hang out with other Slytherins though.

I just can't feel too sorry for the teenage Snape of the Pensieve, knowing that two years later he will be off, murdering and/or torturing innocent muggles and non-purebloods. Just look at him insulting Lily, who came to his help, in that scene. He is not a likeable person. Does it make it right to pick on him? No. But what really gets me is the teenybopper Snape fans who write of him as some kind of misunderstood sensitive Goth picked on by those meanie football stars. That's why I like JKR's books. They are more complex than that.

And if Sirius' comment about Snape's fascination with Dark Arts is correct (and I don't see why it isn't. We know Snape is good at them and joined the DE after school), then considering there is a war with V going on, that would add an extra doze of hate on both sides.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

James wouldn't have minded if Snape stuck around him.

Except for the problem of them being in different houses. If Snape wanted to hang around with Gryffindors, he would not have been in Slytherin (and apparently proud of it, if you consider he is now Head of House). Considering Voldie was already operating, I don't think the hanging-out would have worked on either part.

I'm sure they felt Snape deserved it just as much as Harry and Co felt Draco deserved to be turned into a ferret and bounced around as one.

Yes. Indeed.

[phylogenetics.livejournal.com]

James wouldn't have minded if Snape stuck around him.

Except for the problem of them being in different houses. If Snape wanted to hang around with Gryffindors, he would not have been in Slytherin (and apparently proud of it, if you consider he is now Head of House). Considering Voldie was already operating, I don't think the hanging-out would have worked on either part.


I'm not of the belief that the house divisions went as deep as protrayed by Harry's POV. There are undoubtedly divisions, but it makes little sense how a thirty second decision by the sorting hat would mean rigid divisions for the next seven years. I think it's Harry's rivalery with Malfroy which leads to this anti-Slytherin bent in the books, that doesn't mean no one crossed over from their houses, even in Slytherin and Gryffindor. So yes, I can see, had Snape and James gotten along better, Snape might or might not have socialized with James, and James may have accepted Snape as a fellow student/friend. It was their personality, not their house divisions, which made them enemies.

Notice no mention was made that Slughorn being from Slytherin should put him under suspicion of illicit activities ("he's a Slytherin, so blah blah"), and Harry thought favorably of Slughorn b/c Slughorn wasn't nasty to Harry....the Slytherin epithet they sprew has more to do with hatred of certain people in Slytherin, not the House as a whole methinks.

[crumpeteer.livejournal.com]

Which is what makes me think JKR is going to need to show some decent Slytherins in the book at some point (I think it will probably be Snape considering there's no time to introduce anyone else) or the question has to be brought up of "why don't they just do away with Slytherin house if everyone bad comes from there?"

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I actually think Slughorn is a good example of a decent Slytherin. He certainly has a conscience. I like him.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

they chose Peter as part of the group, which was a horrible move on their part. Why did they bring him into the fold? Probably because he sucked up to them, judging from Sirius's reaction to the betrayal and Snape's memory.

Peter, Peter, Big Death Eater. I don't think Sirius' reaction in the Shack was that of someone betrayed by an underling. It was someone living the betrayal of a friend, someone for whom (Sirius said) he was willing to die. He calls Peter weak and talentless there, but he is hardly being rational, objective or reflecting how he felt in school. He is talking to the man who tricked him, murdered his best friend and family, and condemned him to the hell of Azkaban.

As in the memory? Peter is clearly a follower. But neither James nor Sirius seem to be really interested in his flattery. James is performing for the girls, and Sirius is plain indifferent. They clearly valued him enough to help him transform. And they tolerated his drawbacks (follower type timidity) because he must have had other qualities they liked. If the only reason they had him around was for occasional flattery, he would not have been one of the four, but someone they chatter with occasionally.

they humiliated him. And they enjoyed it. Because they were bored.

Well, it escalated and got out of control like such things tend to do. They didn't dangle him robes up in the beginning. They only did it when he went for a vicious curse. And of course, according to Lupin in HBP, Levicorpus was really common in their day and half the school ended up being dangled by an ankle at one time or another.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

They were just different from Snape in that they found other people willing to accept them while Snape never did.

Well, Snape found DE. He had to be pretty well ranked as a DE to hang out with Malfoy.

[rabidfangurl.livejournal.com]

My favorite how they met story is the one from Stealing Harry, where as Remus explains, "Your dad gave Sirius a Fizzing Whizzbee and they were friends for life."

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Link? Pretty please :)

[rabidfangurl.livejournal.com]

Stealing Harry, chapters 1-2 (http://www.livejournal.com/users/sam_storyteller/34272.html)

The rest of the story is also at sam_storyteller; Sam's site is currently down, but 95% of his stories are on that LJ these days.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I started reading it and am in love!