Veronica, Battlestar and Real People Shipping Phenomenon

[dangermousie]

You know how I said I was giving up Veronica Mars? The widely polarizing reactions I've seen on my flist to last night's ep actually made me want to check it out for myself, if only to see what all the uproar was about. It's kinda sad, but a small mean part of me wants to watch it just so I can bust on it, which I know is irrational since I haven't even seen the damn thing.

I have also realized I've been neglecting Battlestar Galactica fandom shamelessly and haven't even done any write-ups post 3.02. So here are my quick thoughts on 3.03 .

First off, not enough Kara, but the one scene we did get was creepy and awesome and kara is clearly trying so hard to not be like her mother and I love the little bit of Leoben watching. It's like taming a wild scary beast, for him. That child is unnaturally composed and freaks me the HELL out.

Tyrol/Cally=Super!Couple. I love them. Which probably means they are going to die. Still, better them than Helo and Sharon (yes, I know, minority opinion). Great bit how Tigh calms Tyrol's panic about Cally by telling him that to rescue her he needs to calm because he doesn't want Tigh and Ellen for Tyrol's kid's parents (yup. Caprican Osama and Miss Slutty Pants, not good role models). And speaking of Ellen, I do feel bad for her. She did what she did to save Tigh, even if it's exactly opposite of what he wants.

Zarek/Roslin totally newest OTP. His comment that it's been ages since a woman tackled him to the ground is pretty awesome. Zarek, professional rebel. Whatever his flaws, no one can say he doesn't have the courage of his convictions (yes, I am forgetting Black Market and you should too).

The best scene in the ep was Baltar with Six. He is so flawed yet so human, so tortured, I feel for him. Whoa.

Oh, and there will be hell to pay when Sharon finds out about the baby as she is so convinced Adama won't lie to her.

I still have long meta to write on My Girl and that reminds me. When I went in search of more MG pics on soompi, I went into Lee Dong-Wook thread (he played Gong-Chan) and I was really taken aback. It contained the usual sqeeing about his hotness, but besides that most of the topic (which went literally into hundreds of pages) from my cursory scanning was about people shipping him with Da Hae, the actress who played Yu-Rin. I am really taken aback and surprised by the huge amount of RPShipping going on in there. People were posting pictures of them at some event(s), analyzing their body language to support their theories, etc. Which is pretty bizarre. The only basis for thinking they are dating, as far as I could tell, was that they starred in MG together and had great chemistry (which they did). But they aren't Gong-Chan and Yu-Rin, they are real people with separate identities. That led me to wonder as to why RPShipping seems to be so much more prevalent in Asian fandoms. I haven't seen such levels of devotion to it as in LDW thread very often, but if you go into the Goong thread, people there are all about hooking up the actors who play the leads, and ditto for the DBY thread where people are into hooking up Mike He and Rainie Yang because they were good together in DBY.

Is the line between entertainment and reality thinner there? Do people have different norms? (In most non-Asian fandoms, RPF is regarded as a bastard cousin you never admit to the house, or if you do, it's at the dead of night). I can't even say that RPF is a fan continuation of canonically-supplied RPF (like with Japanese idols who work for JE and do canon RPF for fans) because as far as I am aware, that is not the case in Taiwan or Korea. I find RPF/S of any kind vaguely disturbing, firstly for privacy reasons (I wouldn't ship people I met on the street, ditto actors) but mainly because it seems to me to blur the line between reality and fiction and deny the realness of real people just because you don't know them in person.

Anyway, this was a digression.

Comments

[kitsune714.livejournal.com]

I'm not averse to RPF, in general, but I do have a great distaste for poorly written fanfiction of any genre. Unfortuantely, a vast majority of the RPF writers in the Asian entertainment fandoms (though if you really, really want to, you can go looking and find a gem hidden among all the others) seem to be of the "I'm going to write in e-speak and abandon any attempt at good grammar, plot development, or rational characterization" type, which means that, on the whole, RPF in the Asian entertainment fandom leaves me with a rather sour taste in my mouth. Again, nothing pains me quite like poorly written fanfiction.

I don't think that the rabid squeeing over 'shipping actors based solely on chemistry in a TV show or movie is any greater in the Asian entertainment fandoms than in western ones, but I do think that because there's less squick over RPShipping in this fandom, you see it more often. Many production companies actually take advantage of the public's desire to see a certain pair of actors teamed together in a romantic role--I know that in the Philippines, TV stations/production houses have a stable of actors and put them together in what they call "love teams", based on things like an online poll (seriously!). These "love teams" have dramas, movies, all sorts of things written around them, just so the public can see these two actors together.

I also think that fanservice is a much bigger deal in Asian entertainment than it is in American entertainment, particularly because of the competition from other production companies and from Hollywood. "Fanservice" is often used with respect to things like Johnny's, for example, with the shiny, sequined slash, but it actually encompasses all sorts of things. Take "Goong", for example. It was supposed to be 16 episodes, but there was fan clamoring, the production team caved, and extended it to 20. Fans wanted more, so they extended it to 24 episodes. Unheard of in American television. There are whole segments of episodes of "Goong" that have nothing to do with furthering the plot (i.e., Shin and CG running around on a beach, for seemingly no reason except cuteness and increasing screencap possiblities), and yet, they are there, because the fans want to see it. So where was I going with this? I think this whole attitude of fanservice kind of plays into the unusually (for us, as Americans, anyway) vocal RPShipping in Asian entertainment fandoms.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

It was supposed to be 16 episodes, but there was fan clamoring, the production team caved, and extended it to 20. Fans wanted more, so they extended it to 24 episodes

Didn't know that but it does explain my wishing for a slightly faster pace (don't misunderstand, I love Goong to pieces, but MG is a lot more tightly written, IMO, in that regard.)

Shin and CG running around on a beach, for seemingly no reason except cuteness and increasing screencap possiblities

Heeeeee. It did seem a bit out of nowhere and I remember going...OK...this is really cool but really random.

These "love teams" have dramas, movies, all sorts of things written around them, just so the public can see these two actors together.

That is SO fascinating. Sort of like silent era Hollywood, or actually even Bollywood where (though not to the degree that Philippines do it), a lot of time actors are paired just because they were great together before and a successful team will go and repeat and repeat and this will be the main selling point. In some ways, Asian entertainment seems to be a lot more star/less script (proportionately) oriented, at least when it comes to Bollywood and dramas.

"I'm going to write in e-speak and abandon any attempt at good grammar, plot development, or rational characterization" type,

Heh. That's true for any fanfic :P

[koalathebear.livejournal.com]

In rewatching Singing in the Rain the other day, Lena Lamont kind of half believed that she and Don Lockwood were a couple and the studio thought that it would promote their movies more if the public believed that they were an item. I think it's because people like to believe things are more real than fiction - similarly why before it wasn't cool for an actor's career if he came out and revealed he was gay. As to privacy, I don't really think it hurts and for the most part, a lot of the actors themselves aren't above playing up for the media/cameras if they think it will generate more viewers :P I sound cynical. Meep.

[kitsune714.livejournal.com]

I love Goong to pieces, but MG is a lot more tightly written, IMO, in that regard.

Oh, totally. While I love both series, I think I like "My Girl" more because it drags less.

Also, I find many aspects of Asian entertainment a lot like old Hollywood. Johnny's, for example. This one agency handles everything for their stable of artists--musicals, movies, commercials, print ads, dramas, variety shows, interviews, EVERYTHING, whereas western stars are more "free agents", in that they pick their own projects and stuff. The pop idol culture is just so different there too, you know?

BSG this season is...not bad. I quit pilots, so I'm all about the cylons this season. I'm not sure how much of season 3 you've seen so far, but Fat Lee is so entertaining for me. :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I must say, I find RPF really really bizarre.

But on the other hand , I am rarely interested about any actor's or actress's personal life. They exist just like figments of fiction for me.

I think in Asia there is more of phenomenon where actors/actresses do EVERYTHING (singing, modeling, etc.) and their whole life becomes as one piece of entertainment. There is definitely less of it in Europe/USA.

[fivil.livejournal.com]

Dude, even in Bollywood some people believe in SRK-Kajol (hello? married much!) and Rani-Abhishek. I feel weird about RPF. I understand why star personalities could inspire people to write and if the fic's good, I might even give it a try myself - and have in the past, though not in any of my current fandoms - but writing it is just too weird for me.

I think the reasons for it vary. In a way, yes, entertainment and reality are getting mixed up. You've got people maybe not thinking "Emma is Hermione" (confusing the two with each other) but maybe thinking "Emma has Hermione's features" or something and shipping because of it. I find HP RPF the most disturbing, if it at all features the youngest cast members. Eurgh. Oh, I think in SPN some people write RPS so they can slash the actors without being squicked by the incest factor of the characters - makes sense but still odd to me.

I wouldn't ship people I met on the street, ditto actors
Heh. I've sometimes been inspired by something I've seen on the street or in a public place and written original fic because of it. Naturally I don't know these people, don't know their names, their situations in life - so I make up the rest and get my story from the inspiration. I see it as inspiration purely. But writing actors is attempting to capture their *true* personality, whereas the people on the street, I couldn't give a crap about their true character. So RPF is definitely more than "inspired"..

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I am actually confused as to how adding more eps works. I imagine they have finished filming by the time the drama starts showing. So do they go back and reshoot? But how do they stuff 8 eps worth of scenes in without murdering the script (because Goong doesn't feel piecemeal at all). After all, they won't know about popularity until the first few eps aired so they have to stuff things in the middle without messing the story arc and it's not like you could take out 8 eps out of Goong's 24 in the middle and have the story still work so it obviously works within character development/plot context, so how????

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

a lot of the actors themselves aren't above playing up for the media/cameras if they think it will generate more viewers :P

Totally true!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I think in Asia there is more of phenomenon where actors/actresses do EVERYTHING (singing, modeling, etc.) and their whole life becomes as one piece of entertainment. There is definitely less of it in Europe/USA.

That does seem to be the case. It's like there is an entertainment persona :)

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

some people believe in SRK-Kajol (hello? married much!) and Rani-Abhishek

Yup. Don't get it. It's sort of like in old Hollywood, fans were upset that when Jeannette McDonald married, she did not marry her frequent co-star Nelson Eddy. Whaaaaa?

[kitsune714.livejournal.com]

I don't know too much of the details, but I was keeping up with the Soompi girls on the forum as the show was airing, and as I understand it, the extension to 20 episodes was made near the end of production because the manhwa fans wanted more (and because there were a few volumes of the comic that they hadn't planned on putting in the drama). I believe that "Goong" was actually filming some of the later episodes as it was airing, so the decision to extend the whole series to 24 episodes was made I think sometime around the airdate of episode 5-6-7. This actually explains why Hyorin left in episode 20--the actress's contract was only good for 20 episodes and she had another engagement, so she wasn't available for the last four episodes that had been tacked on. The last four episodes were supposed to be a segue into season 2, but I'm not sure where it all stands now that the new plotline has been announced.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Lord of the Rings and Supernatural are two non-Asian fandoms with huge associated RPF fandoms.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I am still unsure whether to be mad or glad S2 of Goong is so different. I would have LOVED to see more Shin and CG, but OTOH, they don't have much manga that is currently out to work from and the specter of Meteor Garden 2 is horrifying. With the new cast and all new story, I don't have to worry about connecting it to old Goong in any way and so, even if I watch it, can comfortably regard it as AU.

But why oh why couldn't they get the cast back? *yes am bipolar on this issue*

Btw, I remember you mentioning there will be My Girl 2 in 2007. Is that still true? And with the same cast? I am torn between hope and dread...The story did seem pretty much over...

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

True. Someone pointed out that in SPN it's so people can ship without the incest angle.

LOTR fandom scares me (and I used to be in it, too) but I think ultimately, it's like Harry Potter fandom. It's so huge you can find ANYTHING there. And like some Asian stuff, I could see how people could use the whole 'they became bestest friends EVAH and they were there forever' thing to be inspired to RPF.

[sushis.livejournal.com]

Here via meta-fandom

I'm not familiar with any of the fandoms in the original post, but I do have opinions on RPF, since it's my main thing on LJ.

I definitely understand how RPF could seem weird to many people, given that it's real human beings we're talking about shipping, and there are a few people who have trouble distinguishing between reality and fantasy. Personally, I have no trouble understanding that anything I write about the famous people I'm interested in is fiction. At the same time, part of the attraction of this kind of fandom to me is in attempting to understand what the inner lives of these people *might* be like. Maybe that sounds contradictory, my saying "I am totally making this up and yet I hope that I've touched on some core of truth about these people." Basically, when I write RPF, I'm thinking--"There is virtually no chance that these two people have any interest in each other. Taking that as a given, how can I invent a relationship between them and in so doing illuminate facets of their personas that make them particularly interesting to me?"

[sushis.livejournal.com]

Ooh! Yes! I think the key word here is "persona." I wrote below about why I write RPF, and persona is a key. A performer with a powerful persona sparks the imagination. It sounds like perhaps in Asia actors are like US or UK rock stars in that they have personas that almost take on lives of their own.

[aoimidori.livejournal.com]

skipped the bsg cut as i have yet to play catch up with that show. ^^

as for rpf, i have never gone for it. mostly for the same reasons you find it "vaguely disturbing." its one thing to 'ship and toy with fictional characters, but its entirely something else to do the same with real people. especially once people start slashing actual actors -- that just kind f gets to me. i can handle crack rpf at times, but they are people who are serious about these stuff, and i'd rather just stay out of it.

as for rpf being more accepted and prevalent in asian fandoms, i believe its because asian actors actually build it up. its a part of their publicity acts, whereas in hollywood, the actors tend to want to keep their love lives private.

[kitsune714.livejournal.com]

I had heard about "My Girl 2" being a possibility a few months ago, but I've never heard anything more about it since then. I'm kind of doubting that a sequel might ever materialize, particularly because the writing team is working a new drama called "Fantasy Couple" that is currently airing (I'm going to wait until the whole thing is done and subbed before I start watching it, because from experience, their dramas are super addictive and waiting for a new episode each week would probably wreck me). The coolest thing about "Fantasy Couple" is that it is actually inspired by (get this) a Goldie Hawn/Kurt Russell movie called Overboard. The plot synopsis didn't draw me in right away, but that happened with "My Girl" also, so I'm still pretty game for this show. Also, where do you go with a sequel after the cracky awesomeness of "My Girl"? I mean, you could always do Jeong-Woo's story (and lord knows he needs some happiness), but you know.

I totally want more Shin/CG, but hey, an AU is better than MGII and "Dao Ming Si gets amnesia and falls in love with a princess". I am hoping for cameos. I mean, come on! Throw us a Shin/CG bone, here, folks!

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

And ummm...Popslash (as in American pop stars like Backstreet Boys and NSYNC) Giant.

[msilverstar]

Oh very well said! I'm in LOTR RPS because that's what floats my boat, but I am still trying to figure out why.

[sushis.livejournal.com]

I just recently got into RPS (of musicians), when I joined LJ a couple of months ago, and have not been in any non-RPS fandoms. I love discussing these things philosophically, but have been surprised to find that something like 98% (just a rough guess) of the discussions on metafandom center around non-RPS fandoms. I am really interested in why people like what they like, so I would be interested in any theories you might have.

I guess I shouldn't be shocked that there are people in slash fandoms who find RPS slash distasteful, any more than I'm surprised that there are people who find any slash off-putting. It is odd to find myself in a strange minority within a strange minority--not an upsetting oddness, just something to observe and wonder about. Although our fandoms don't overlap, feel free to stop by my journal and leave a message somewhere if you want to share any philosophical ideas about the RPS phenomenon. Actually, I think I'll put a meta-ish post on my journal. You can reply to that if you're so inclined, and maybe one of the small group of other people who read my journal will, too.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

For me, it's not an issue of whether it's slash, het or gen, it's the issue of fictional people versus real people.

I'll read slash, het or gen based on fictional people any time, but RPF of any variety squicks me out. It's a purely instinctual thing.

But then, of course, you get into interesting and complicated issue of what aboit historical people? There have certainly been plenty of novels (some with graphic sex scenes) about Alexander the Great, or Napoleon, or Queen Elizabeth or whoever.

Nobody bats an eyelash at that. It's labeled as historical fiction and read by those who are interested.

It can't be just because it's published and (generally) better written and more consistently spelled than an average fanfic (whether RPF or not). Because otherwise, people would be just as freaked out/displeased by general fanfic, which is also unpublished and sometimes atrociously spelled. No one bats much of an eyebrow in any fandom about general fanfic about e.g. LOTR characters or Harry Potter.

I think the biggest problems/differences as percieved might be:

a. Most historical fiction is about 'historical' figures. Those people are dead dead dead. If someone wrote a fanfic about Cleopatra, would people be just as taken aback/view it as marginal? What if it was based on the movie Cleopatra? Is it a fandom fanfic, RPF, what? Or would people still be squicked out? My instinctive reaction that unless it's outside of confines of a fandom-fandom (by that I mean fandom based on a fictional medium: movie or a novel), people would still view it as strange. But as strange as writing a fanfic about e.g. Justin Timberlake? And why the difference/similarity in reactions?

b. Historical novels are researched and have bibliographies in the back. It's actually a pretty important factors. I think the perception is that novelists write a novel about a historical figure because they find them interesting and they do a lot of research so this person is reasonably close to what he/she was or at least a decent interpretation.

I don't think most RPF is that thoroughly researched (and in fact, it's probably next to impossible to do a thorough research of that nature on someone still very much active and without authorization/interviews with key people what not). And it's actually a catch-22 because if it is obsessively researched with footnotes, people will slowly back away and then run because they will think the author is crazy stalker.

And that leads me to perhaps the biggest potential difference: people percieve that people write RPF not because they want to create a good likeness of the person but because they are hormonally interested in the person (whether that's true or not is besides the point in discussing perception) and clearly write not even something that is un-researched but untrue (most likely, Viggo Mortensen and Orlando Bloom haven't moved to Bolivia to grow wheat together). So it just seems like people-manipulation for hormonal fun. Of course, that brings the whole issue of how is it different from speculative fiction novels (e.g. South won the Civil War, so on) and I think, once again, there is where the hormonal perception comes in...

I have no conclusion I am working towards. I am just thinking out loud, basically.

[sushis.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting response. There's lots to think about, but I guess I'll focus on your last point, particularly since it struck me as an important thing I left out of my previous two posts (partly because I don't have a solid, totally coherent answer to the concern. )

I do think the "hormonal" thing is a big part of the RPF attraction. I also think, why is that *necessarily* bad? (Again, I'm assuming the requisite mental stability to distinguish reality from fantasy, as I feel that virtually all cultural production becomes untennable if we always assume the most unstable and dangerous individuals as the consumers.) I agree it would be wrong to attempt to spread a rumor positting one's fantasies about real people as facts. It would be wrong, also, now that I think about it, to, for instance, type up an explicit fantasy concerning one's next-door neighbor and put it in all the mailboxes on the street, even if said manuscript were clear about its being fiction. I think this may be a more relevant analogy to the RPF I write. So, if I'm an ethical person and I don't want to just conveniently avoid asking questions about whether the things I like to do are things that I should do, I need to ask, is what I am doing when I write RPF analogous or not, in any ethically meaningful way, to this hypothetical neighborhood pornographer? It's quite late (and I'd like to think I'm not just saying that because it's convenient--it really is quite late where I am) so I'm going to formulate my answer later. Thanks for your input. It's really nice when I run into people on LJ who disagree with me politely, write well, and make me think.

[sushis.livejournal.com]

To address another main point: re: the fact that you or others find squickiness in RPF: squick is a visceral response that doesn't necessary have any ethical import. Many straight men find the thought of men having sex with each other icky. I'm neither going to berate them as homophobes for their visceral response nor stop fantasizing and writing about men having sex with each other because of those (staight) men's feelings. Ethically, it's sufficient on both sides (the legions of squicked-out-by-teh-gay straight men on one side and me the slasher on the other) that they do not attempt to deprive me of my right to write what I will and I do not attempt to force them to read my depraved imaginings. Likewise with me the RPS-er and those slashers squicked out by RPS. That's not to say that I'm not interested in *why* you are squicked, and the reasons you've outlined give me lots to think about. I *am* interested in why individuals are repulsed by certain things and why they are attracted to others. It's just that while I may alter a behavior I enjoy for an ethical reason, I see no reason to alter it just because others (who are free not to participate) find it squicky. I should add that I know you haven't suggested I stop writing RPF due to the fact that you dislike it, but I know that for some others a distaste for something is indistinguishable from a desire to erradicate it.

hWy?

[(Anonymous)]

Hi all!


G'night